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Hindi in Hindi Cinema
About a year back I was shocked to realize that I couldn’t recall a hindi word for ‘creativity’. This was perhaps a consequence of staying out of touch of hindi literature and hindi speaking people. Even though I make it a point to read hindi whenever I go back home, I do not feel the same command over the language as I felt few years back. The words seem to be slipping away faster and faster from my shrinking vocabulary.
But there is another important thing in a language, its grammar. I must admit that I have never studied hindi grammar formally (except in school which I never took seriously) but I have a good intuition about it and thus far my intuition has never failed me. I have spent my childhood in the heartland of hindi speaking area.
And I have rarely come across wrong hindi in literarature or old hindi movies (unless it’s punjabified or bengalified hindi and is done intentionally to suit the character). In fact, I must admit that given the number of people who speak wrong hindi, it is actually surprising to see people speak good hindi on screen most of the time.
The sad thing is that I can recount more than one instance of wrong hindi in recent hindi movies.
I was shocked to hear wrong hindi coming from Amitabh Bachchan’s mouth in Cheeni Kum, (un)fortunately I don’t remember the dialogue. Coming from Allahabad, if he is speaking wrong hindi, what does this indicate? Either he is so uninterested that he doesn’t care what he is speaking in front of the camera or he really doesn’t know. I don’t know which is worse.
The point is that wrong language not only makes some of us wince once in a while but sometimes it also affects the meaning you are trying to communicate. I remember watching promos of Life in a..Metro and feeling a bit weird when Kangana says “mujhe to tum aisi jagah le ja sakte ho na jahan tumhe koi janta na ho”. The sad tone and the meaning just didn’t match. When I watched the movie, I knew what was missing. Shouldn’t it be: “mujhe to tum aisi jagah hi le ja sakte ho na jahan tumhe koi janta na ho”?
Of course, our aam junta is very clever and understands the meaning inspite of the error.
Few days back I was watching ‘Jab We Met’ . The scene after Kareena misses her train for the first time and goes and blasts Shahid, she says “achha to meri galati hai, main tumhara help kar rahi thi…” (shouldn’t it be tumhari help…?)
Now, I would be ok with it if it fitted her character for she plays a punjabi girl but this mistake is cleary not because of that. Also, there aren’t any similar mistakes in her hindi in rest of the film. I don’t know how many of you noticed it but it struck me the very first time I watched that scene and later some of the friends confirmed that they also found it odd.
Sometimes there are word to word translations from english like “wo pyaar mein pad gaya/gir gaya/tha” all of which sound very very odd and hilarious. In fact in the same movie Kareena says “kyonki wo pyaar mein thi” a word to word translation of “because she was in love”. Although this is much better than ‘wo pyaar mein gir gaya‘ (he fell in love) which trust me, I did hear in some horrible movie, I think “unhe pyaar ho gaya tha” is a much better sentence and sounds more like original hindi rather than translated from english.
I am unaware if people have actually started using such translations in hindi nowadays. If yes, god save me!
I may come off as picky but I do not demand that everyone should be able to speak absolutely correct hindi for it’s neither expected nor possible. All I demand is that people who write, who consider themselves to be good enough to write for literature or even for movies should know better.
The first case of ‘Jab we Met’ may be questioned on the basis that since ‘help’ is an english word it may not follow the usual rules. How can increasing use of english words be taken into account? Is the judgement intuition based or are there rules that govern the usage?
I believe a lot can be taken care of by just a good intuitive understanding of the language which I guess is also essential for the flow one needs while writing.
I don’t know if there are similar problems in regional languages but hindi in hindi cinema is sure going through a bad phase.
Hopefully it’s indeed just a phase and will pass sooner or later.
84 Responses to “Hindi in Hindi Cinema”
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Neeraja: I found many such instances in Deepa Mehta’s Water where the sentence per se was not incorrect, but the emphasis on the wrong word made it ‘wrong’. Then, there was also this scene of John Abraham asking Lisa Ray, “aap vidhwa kab bani” instead of “aap vidhwa kab huin”. (I wrote about these examples in my review of the film on my blog).
And I am seeing this emphasis on wrong words in almost every Hindi film these days. Definitely makes me wince.
I missed the dialogue of Cheeni Kum…do you recall when it comes. Usually I don’t miss wrong use of Hindi in films, but this looks like an exception.
If its period film like water, then its a problem …but in some movies like say JWM …the character plays a 20 something studying in mumbai …and this is how most of the ppl talk these days …i don’t see anyone around me talking in shudh Hindi ..this is how we speak..this is how i speak hindi ….
I think sometimes the characters need to speak in improper hindi ….But as said earlier if its a historic character or a character who is suppose to speak good hindi,then it’s a big NO….
erm, Swades, is one recent example, which sort of used pure form of Hindi. I improved my Hindi after watching Swades and learnt how to wear a dhoti :-D
And Iqbal, is one recent example, which sort of used pure from of old Hindustani language.
No?
Such instances are aplenty because we have a lot of writers among others who think in English. Even in daily life while people have no problem in conversing in the vernacular there come times where they deem the usage of vernacular too “formal”. Even in the Hindi speaking belt would you come across someone who would say Dhanyawaad bhayya, instead of Thank you bhayya (while the rest of their Hindi being appropriate)! My example might sound trivial but as Anand Kadam said that is how people speak today, and going by the characters in say JWM, it would be odd to have those 20 somethings speak pure Hindi.
“The first case of
I am all for the usage of pure Hindi in mainstream movies (leave alone parallel fare) as long as it doesn’t come across as too put on, and in a mocking way not counting the self-consciously-funny Dharam paji in Chupke Chupke :)
Unfortunately the usage of characters who speak good Hindi in Hindi cinema has been associated with a lad with a kurta on, side partitioned well oiled hair, kolhapuri chappals, a jhola and with a “namaste” and a “Lakshmi Prasad or a Narayan” for a surname; and that’s one caricature I can’t escape.
@Aditya
Oh ya completely forgot about Water. Thanks for adding.
I saw your review, should have added the ‘emphasis on the right word’ thing more cleary in the post. People do mess up there.
Regarding Cheeni kum…ummmmn….may be in one of the scenes with the little girl. Sorry, don’t remember cleary so not sure. But that was not the first time I heard Amitabh Bachchan speaking wrong hindi on celluloid.
@Anand, HG
You guys are missing my point. I have absolutely no issues with people using hinglish to communicate. I do it all the time but the language, its sentence structure, gender of words used… all these still follows certain rules of grammar.
It’s not the word ‘help’ I have problem with. It’s ‘tumhara help’ which, I think, should be ‘tumhari help’. And as I said, it doesn’t seem like it was required because of the background of the character in question.
If you read carefully, you will see that I have refrained from using the word shuddh hindi in my post. I have only said ‘correct hindi’ not ’shuddh hindi’.
@Santosh Kumar
Yeah thinking in english…that’s perhaps one of the major reasons of these word to word translated dialogues I was refering to but the dialogue write is not required to be spontaneous. One can take time, check, re-check and edit.
I totally agree that that’s how we speak today but that’s not my point. See my comment above.
by the way, your trivial example reminds me of this dialogue from Dil Dosti etc. “Saari achhi cheezein angrezi mein hi boli jaati hain, jaise I love you, I miss you…”
i know you were talking about the grammar…. i was just giving you a couple of example of recent hindi films, in which…..
:w;
Oh, you have someone who shares the grouse with you Neeraja. The film I am working on has some terrible language, sentence construction problems and I feel so irked every time I sit through some childish error like ‘tumhara help’.I am hoping that the changes are suitably made while dubbing. You know what its like when I say ‘I’m hoping’ instead of an assured ‘It will…’ Sigh…
As for your question about whether this is a recent trend, yes it is. But about your optimism that it is a passing phase I think not. (According to me it is only going to get worse.) For three reasons -
- lack of writers proficient in Hindi.
- lack of communication in correct Hindi within the industry (English is becoming the language of communication here more and more. The sensibility of Hindi has changed and hence peoples grip on the grammar.)
- The changing language habits of the audience.
The latter encourages makers to carry-on ‘wrong’ language onscreen in an effort to simulate real life and hence make characters and communication more relatable.
How many makers really think that way though is debatable. I think that exists only when using anglicised Hindi or lots of English words in the Hindi dialogues.
Do I like it? Well, yes if nicely done I do. Dil Chahta Hain for example. Nice mix of common ground Hindi and English. The language showed the sensibility of the youth. But sadly, not many makers lay an emphasis or even realise the huge impact correct language (and here I don’t mean the grammar alone) has an the subject. And sometimes it is quite cheesy too here the same old lines repeated movie after movie movie after movie, main-tera-khoon-pi-jaoonga types. So maybe this change is for the better.
But yes I wish someone would take some charge over this change and make sure it goes in the right direction.
Nice post Neeraja…
or their could be another reason…think about this:( Lets take the dialog, ” Aap Vidhwa kab bani” for convinience sake)
The shot is set, Lisa ray and John in the frame: ACTION
“Aap Vidhwa kab bani?”
CUT
John, its Aap vidhwa kan hui”
oyye maaa..sorry, re-take
ACTION
“Aaaaappppp viidddhhwa kab hui”
CUT
John..emotion..i need more emotion
okok
ACTION
” Aap vidhwa kab bani”
“jibber jabber..jibber jabber”
CUT..GOOD SHOT..OK
Ad: But, Mira he said aap vidhwa kab bani instead of hui
Oyye chakk de phatte..the expression was priceless..all the sound went good..sab kuch theek tha..so, no worries, lets ok the shot
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Wat say?
creativity = rachnaatmakta
.. hee :d i regularly read hindi literature
Nice defence for AK and its Deepa by the way
Neeraja,
Here’s a moronic piece by a 50+ firangi economist on the same topic - http://www.deeshaa.org/2008/03/17/rajivspeak-is-getting-out-of-hand/
See my comments (luker#12) there.
I grew up speaking hinglish from nursery onwards, & its my sole mode of communication. I know no other language. Shudh hindi nahi aaati, even though won awards in school for nibandh, kavita, vaad-vivaad & all that schooli hindi stuff. Did my social studies in hindi too, btw. Had fun in Bhoogol writing about habits of cheen, roos, fransisi junta, unki aabadi, gatividiyaan, itihaas, saankriti, samaaj & rehen-sehen.
Point ye hai hi koi bhi NCERT Hindi nahi bolta. Spent couple of months in film studios in mumbai last year. Most common expression used in all of mumbai - Ghanta. Everybody says it almost every other sentence. Kya karoge ? This is what Indian society is really like. Even travelled to cowbelt & UP-Bihar. The lingo on those teens zubaan I can’t even write here, so brutally offensive & dirty. Every sentence is fuck this, fuck that…all in avadhi/hindi/bhojpuri mix. Every teen wants to do his bhabhi…whats with that ?!
One of the biggest privilege I had was watching Omkara with truckdriver chokres from Bihar, it was completely eye-opening. They were so nasty & so much filth in their language, & yet they were so young & didn’t really mean any of what they said. Like how yahaan pe US main kids in college say motherfucker all the time but aisi hi phekte hain.
I was completely blown away by the earthy rustic blend of hinglish in the mumbai-pune areas. Most of the TV anchors, Ekta bandwagon girls…jo wo soap serial karke income kamate hain, they were completely amazing. I felt I had died & gone to paradise. Matlab itni khuli view of sex & sexuality kahin pe dekhne ko nahi milti. Every girl had slept with every producer & every newschap & it was a big incestuos cesspool. 20-25 year old girls with ciggies in their mouth say ‘that bitch’ and ‘fuck yaar’ all the time! I actually stumbled upon a real live orgy in Andheri, not kidding. With weed and guitar strings and short-shorts and smoke filled flats, rattling cots…I felt I was in some postmodern Terry Gilliam world. And these same girls get up in morning, put on sari sindhoor & pretend to be saas bahus on TV…its beyond irony.
Dil Chahta Hai, Lakshya, Jab We Met etc are some of the very few films trying to capture what junta actually speaks like. I mean normal apan ke log junta, not your gangwar Bhiku Maatre types which has been captured very, very well, by our own Messrs. Anurag & RGV & co. The present generation ie. the ones in the movie industry & the TV crews & soapwaale bandis & so on, they are the most amazing generation I’ve ever seen. They can fake accents at drop of a hat, speak like an American if you want. At the same time, they know very good Hindi. But they’re completely bindaas, mixing hindi, english & whatever other slang, to create a brand new lingo that’s so happening & frankly, quite amazing. I would rather they say ‘vidhwa kab bani’ or ‘kaiko bani’ or ‘when you became vidhwa re’ than whatever’s gramatically correct hindi. Chal jata hai.
@Fatema
Thanks for your input.
One has to accept the fact that there is a huge population whose first language is not Hindi and of those who prefer english and they are not expected to go out of the way to correct their Hindi. No reason why industry people be any different but I was wondering if it is possible to get the draft proof-read by people who do know Hindi well. Of course , as you point out about the ‘The changing language habits of the audience’, most filmmakers may not consider it necessary to have this done.
But cinema today is the most important and far reaching medium and hence it works both ways. If people want to hear the way they speak, their language is also being influence by cinema lingo at the same time.
@HG
In that case, ok :) and I agree. Iqbal was good, remember Naseeruddin Shah saying “Ye saala to genius hai”? He is so natural!
@OM
Teen shots mein OK? I don’t think so! :P
and yeah Deepa not Mira!
@R
Nice defence for AK? Who? What?
@filmibhai
Thanks. I’ll give you 2 more: srijanatmakata, maulikata :)
@lurker#12
err ok! how is that article related to this one? For the umpteenth time, I have absolutely no problem with hinglish. No problem with people using ghanta, aaila, shit…or words that don’t belong to the language.
A spoken language consists of words that people use in everyday life but just a bunch of words do not make sense on their own. They have to structured in a sentence in a way that makes sense and that’s where grammar comes in and that’s why it is important.
Though I do not agree with the writer on his view on language(s), that Rajiv Gandhi speech is hilarious.
@Neeraja
“@R
Nice defence for AK? Who? What?”
I believe Anurag Kashyap wrote the dialogues for Water.
ah! right right, he did. Thanks.
@lurker
Damn!! That is one helluva post !! You’ve seen it all - watched Omkara with Bihari bhaiyyas, seen an orgy with silver screen superstar actresses. Vaakehi, daat deni padegi.
While we’re on this topic, I recently learnt that “chodh” (as in dharm) is actually “chod” (as in Dena Bank).
“I was shocked to hear wrong hindi coming from Amitabh Bachchan
@PS
I know it’s kind of difficult to believe that AB made a mistake in speaking Hindi but as I said, that’s not the only instance he has done so on screen.
Sorry but I still don’t remember where it was in Cheeni Kum.
I think if you use “Help” for “Madad”, the Gender remains the same, “Uski madad” so “Uski help”, e.g. “Ek Bada Patthar tha” so “E Bada Stone tha”, “Purani Dosti” so “Purani Friendship” … this is a very simple rule!!
neeraja // “yei kya bolti. tu mereku accha lagti, isiliye main tereku nariyal pani pilati.” prabhuji’s perfunctory enunciation of the aforesaid dialog is what keeps it alive in the minds of fans like moi. btw, watching sugar less tonight, thanks to your post.
I have a limited understanding of Hindi, so I can’t contribute too much to what you are saying about the misuse of Hindi in Hindi Cinema, but I had to laugh reading this because I often feel the same about the misuse of the English language in American Cinema (or just in American in general).
The issue is that language itself is fluid and ever changing. Could you understand a Hindi speaker from 1000 years ago? Can you read and understand Beowolf?
An Indian Tamil friend was asking recently about the differences in Spanish as it is spoken in Spain and in Mexico, and the fact is that Mexican Spanish is evolving away from Spanish as it is spoken in Spain, to the point that many of my Mexican friends have difficulty understanding a speaker from Spain. I speak Spanish and can barely understand Cuban Spanish.
As long as languages evolve, those of us who are purists about language will find it annoying when a language is abused in movies and in music. Someday, another generation will hear us speak and think we are old geezers because of the words we use and how we phrase our sentences.
BTW, I am taking Hindi classes, and constantly ask my friends about the words I am hearing and getting confused about. Recently, one of them told me that watching movies is a horrible tool to use to learn Hindi as the language is abused in film…
weird I havent even noticed something like this and the examples you have given are quite numerous…
but then again Hindi is not my first language…
Neeraja,
Forget films, even in day to day chats, we are not sure what the correct phrase should be and I’m talking about North Indians here. For example, “Dahi rakha hai ya rakhi hai?”
Forget Hindi speaking or dialogues in hindi cinema, the biggest irony in Hindi Cinema is all the actors, actresess,Directors everyone, who so ever is concerned with this hindi cinema industry speaks in english everytime whenever you take their interviews or give them awards. You can see any award nite and get it confirmed. Its so sad that the language which made them Stars, Super Stars from nowhere, made them millioners, billioners, celebrities and many things state zero, they feel that if they will speak in hindi, they will be degraded. Latest example is the hight of this, playback singer Ms Shreya Ghoshal in a Award night couldnt said a single word of hindi when asked for by anchors…..its shame big shame, what she is today only because of hindi songs, similarly in an award night anchor Sajid Khan was speaking hindi in a very funny manner, just to create humor the bad humor. Hindi is not spoken as he was speaking just to make the moockery of the the National Language.
Amit: This reminds me of an anecdote about Ghalib (from Gulzar’s teleserial). When he was visiting Lucknow, someone asked him if the correct usage was “mera kalam” or “meri kalam”. True to his style, his response was “‘aurat likhe to ‘meri’, mard likhe to ‘mera’” :d
This gender thing in Hindi/Urdu has always been confusing to people because there are no clear rules sometimes it changes from one region of North India to the other for no particular reason.For example the delhi urdu and lakhnavi urdu of yore had many such differences in gender…the ‘kalam’ example above and probably your ‘dahi’ example falls in that category.
Aditya, I fondly remember that one. :)
that was an interesting phase of the series. When Ghalib stays in this small chawl kind of place(sorry can’t think of another word), and there are interesting subtle hints at religion in a very Gulzar fashion, and Naseer Saab made it all so memorable with his brilliant sense of sarcasm and digs at the larger schemes of the world. particularly remember the one where he is asking for money for his alcohol habit. then his entire one sided love/devotion with the character essayed by nina gupta.
sorry, just random throw-backs of the series.
Neeraja, A language evolves, so is hindi…we get hear/speak hinglish and it is largely aginaing acceptance. BUT, BUT I agree that some things are jarring…..the two things that i find jarring are:
1)Aaap Kha lo, aap jaoge, INSTEAD of aap kha lijiye, aap jayenege etc…EVEN our Allahabadi icon was heard speaking like this on KBC
2) the other thing is `kari’ — yeh painting usne kari or maine nahin kari– INSTEAD of maine nahin ki or usne painting ki
@MP: That is totally true–when I used to do interviews for VOA Hindi, many Bollywood stars just couldn’t speak in Hindi. In fact, one Bollywood music director simply canceled the interview because he couldn’t/didn’t think he could speak basic Hindi…
@Neeraja:This is a really great and thought-provoking discussion you’ve sparked :)
I think it has more to do with ‘Bambaiyya Hindi.’ My observation is the city is very gender biased when it comes to Hindi…bus ruka, taxi bulaya, and Baarish ho rahaa hai????? and I guess thats what reflects in the scripts which is a sad state though.
Aditya, didn’t Ghalib go all the way to Kolkata? I may be wrong, its been a long time since I saw it but I remember he took more than a year to go and come back, having lost his son when he returned. But that was one classic serial, inclined me and many others towards understanding Ghalib, Urdu and its nazakat.
I think the ‘tumhara’ in JWM fits. However the dialogue in LIAM is actually- “Tum to mujhe aisi jagha le jaa sakte ho na, jaha koi dekh naa le”- I did definitely sound weird to me…though me thinks the mistake just might due to Kangana’s unclear dialogue delivery rather than the dialogue itself- just a possibility…
Amit: yeah Ghalib went all the way to Kolkata and stopped on the way at Lucknow and Banras among other places….He lost his foster son. All his children had died in infancy/ very young.
oh yes, I owe my obsession with urdu poetry and literature entirely to that serial.
aditi#31, That kari usage is 100% entirely Rajiv Gandhi’s fault. Hamesha kari bolta tha vo aadmi, vo bhi DD pe. Hamne south indiya ki sair kari. Economic policy main modification kari. Cheen ke prime minister se vartalaap kari.[edited] , phir rahul ko foreign bhejne ki plan kari etc etc. [edited]
[Note: Comment partially deleted because of its abusive nature towards dead and famous people and thus violates the PFC guidelines]
@t! and aditi
I agree to the point that languages change with time and a few purists cannot prevent this hybridisation and evolution.
But the question is, what factors govern these processes of change? Is there a theory like ’survival of the fittest’ in the theory of evolution of languages? Also, is there an element of aestheticism in the whole deciding process or is it possible that the evolution leads to an unglier and more chaotic language?
t!, may be you can answer this based on your experience with changes occured/occuring in english and spanish.
I am no expert in english but I feel that scenario is worse in case of Hindi in Hindi cinema.
Good to hear about your Hindi classes :) how’s it going?
@Y(23)
hmmmn…you sure it always works? like say for table and mez?
@wb(24)
That was intentional and therefore fine.
Liked Cheeni Kum?
@Amit(27)
Mere hisab se to ‘Dahi rakha hai’ is correct but as Aditya points out in next comment, it probably varies from region to region. The place where I come from it’s ‘Dahi rakha hai’, ‘dahi rakhi hai’ sounds very strange to me.
Absence of nuetral gender is a big problem in Hindi.
@Y(23) - here is more
meri family… v/s … mera parivar
uska payzama v/s uski patloon v/s uska/uski(?) trousers…
life sometimes is a little confusing :-(
@aditi
I guess that kind of usage is due to punjabi influence and is more common in the west.
@Amanda
Thanks
Yup, sad that people in Hindi film industry don’t feel comfortable with the language.
@adhik
That’s funny! I never saw it from that angle.
@Jahan(35)
“I think the
I lived and worked in Mumbai for about 9 months in 2003-04. This was my first time working in India (having grown up and studied in various parts)and having to find the balance in Business casual Hindi.
My hindi was a hodgepodge of textbook, movies, and the hindi speaking places that I had lived in.
I could speak informally in hindi to people outside work, and formally in english at work. That business casual hinglish that people use at work, was a challenge.
They were juxtaposing traditional hindi grammar (so aap, tum, etc), with colloquial usage (tu,ja,re etc.), while blending it to match the age and rank/designation of your peers, and using English free-willy ti fill in the gaps.
It was for the most part instinctive for everyone at work, but for me, I was clutching at strwas trying to find a structure and some rules of grammar I could adhere to. None were forthcoming, so I thought it best to avoid the usage of chutiya/salah/dimaag ka dahi etc., and err on the side of formal during the transition period, till i picked up the nuances.
this meant that i sounded like your hindi master from school, with about a 1/10th of the vocabulary. I was never able to make the transition to the business caj lingo.
it is still very early stages, but slowly new rules will start to appear.
when i graded papers in grad school in the US, I was appaled by the poor written grammar of students.
Most people pay more attention to grammar and usage of a foreign language since it is learned than their native tongue.
in india this gets complicated that you don’t have an opportunity to improve your grammar and vocabulary in your native tongue, once you get to college.
The biggest achievement of Dil CH, was to have well written urban banter that simulated the way people speak while still serving the purpose of movie dialogue (expose character, and move plot forward).
Characters in movies need not speak grammatically correct. they need only speak character correct.
dabba’s hit the nail bang on the head!
in spite of rerun, cheeni kum’s cool, neeraja. but AB’s mistake? where?
#43 dabba, well said regarding urban banter in DCH.
aapne dekha hoga when Vivah release hui reviewers were like Vivah karke koi aajkal bolta to hai nahi, matlab you say shaadi byaah, Vivah is so oldfashioned na aur vo ladki Amrita Rao kehti hai Aap Jal Piyoge I was like WTF is jal ? You mean paani ? This Jal Sena Vayu Sena business is for government of India army navy paperwork, real life main jal mal moothr is said only by sadhu sant people on aajtak early morning during bhajan program. I think trying to formalize Hindi with grammatically correct structure leaves us concocting artificial dialogs like in Vivah jo koyi real life main to bolta nahi. For example I have to say weird things at work like module A is the union of the groups of idele classes of algebraic number fields and G is the Galois group of Q acting on A. Vahaan pe jo hai I have to be formal & correct or else I will be precisely incorrect phir university se nikal ke phek denge. But ghar aate hi I will go roti pe daal dal do,sometimes I will go daal pe roti daal do, either way how it matters both roti & daal are going to end up in my stomach only no then in which order they go inside how it matters you tell me?
Neeraja:
You have touched a raw nerve here. Seeing such examples in Hindi movies makes me cringe. But more importantly it kills the character for me. In a scripted medium like cinema there is no excuse for this torture. While generally it betrays the ignorance of the writer, actors (and by extension the directors) are increasingly the ones who seem to be the culprit. Many of the comments here are making it sound a very different issue (of purity or shuddhataa of language) than what it actually is (poor writing or lack of basic language skills). It may help explain the issue if you put some similar examples in English, e.g. Think about trying to get away with a dialogue like “What are he doing?”
@ your comment in #39:
Apart from very few exceptions, the gender is not a problem for the native Hindi speakers, although it certainly is for learners or speakers of Hindi as a secondary language. See a quick, little survey that I did on this topic recently. http://hindi.blogspot.com/2008/03/blog-post_07.html
here is an incident…
i am in delhi india these days visiting from usa
and i always buy hindi books from delhi.. and my usual place is connaught place.
i spent four hours walking from book shop to book shop seeking hindi books.. and no one carries hindi books anymore.. some people have few popular books.. and upon asking books by sudarshan fakir or nasir kazmi in hindi script. i was asked .. who are they?
one even asked me who is amrita pritam..
i had to go to darya ganj.. but still couldnt find the books i was looking for..
no one reads hindi anymore.. all malls and book stores just carry popular english books…
terrible tragedy…
and just to add i am not even that old.. just in my early 30s..
@ Badmaash
A few good places in Delhi for Hindi books:
1. Sarvodaya Sahitya Stalls on New Delhi Railway Station (Platform 1, Platform 3): Most of the popular as well as rare Hindi Saahitya is available there, and at unbelievably low prices.
2. “U Special book Shop” at Delhi university, North Campus. (It’s next to Law Faculty there…and you will get all your favorites, and some more, there.)
Badmash, Hindi script kya cheez hai ? I think you mean Devnagri. btw CP main aapko books nahi mil rahe ?? Try
BSS Agencies, 30-P Connaught Circus (below Madras Hotel), Delhi. Ph: 3363557 Good source for serious Hindi literature.
Aap Southex pe Crosswords chale jao vahaan pe kaafi variety hai.
Ye lo lambi list hindi bookstores ke -
—-
Kali for Women, B 1/8 Hauz Khas, 1st floor, New Delhi 110 016
phone: 6852530 / 6864497
Crosswords, South Extension II.
Midland — 3 shops in Connaught Place, Aurobindo Market, and South Extension I. The only guys who voluntarily offer 20% off to everyone, regardless of whether one asks for discounts or not — Sundeep Dougal.
Fact and Fiction, Vasant Vihar. Opposite Priya Cinema.
Old Books Bazaar on Daryaganj — 2km or so of bookstalls, on Sundays.
Fakir Chand Booksellers, Khan Market, Delhi.
Galgotia’s, Connaught Place, Delhi.
Bookworm, Connaught Place, Delhi.
New Book Depot, Connaught Place, Delhi.
Tekson’s, South Extension Part II, Delhi.
Saujanya Books, 165-E Kamla Nagar, Delhi. Ph: 2384 4541, Fax: 2384 9007
Sehgal Brothers, South Extension Part II, Delhi.
The Mascot bookshop, Sunder Nagar, Delhi.
People Tree, 8 Regal Building, Parliament St, New Delhi.
“Guy who sits outside Plaza cinema”, Delhi. (has variety at low prices)
Metropolitan Book Company, 1 Netaji Subash Marg, Darya Ganj, Delhi.
Bookstore at Sahitya Kala Akademi, Delhi.
———
Vaise last time I read amrita pritam was in school 20 years ago for some assignment so you can’t blame sadakchaap bookseller for not knowing amrita pritam’s name, he has better things to do with his life.
To say that no one reads Hindi books will be grossly incorrect. Hindi books overall outsell English books by a large margin, thanks to a large market for pulp fiction (se http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/286797.html). But you are right, you would not find them in malls or chain stores. Hindi publishers are a poorly organized lot. And you can see them either in book fairs or hidden somewhere in galiis and bylanes.
But I don’t know what is a bigger tragedy here - that Hindi books are hard to find in Delhi or, that a book seller in Delhi does not know who Amrita Pritam was?
movies tend to be a product of their environment……the dialogue in a movie therefore tends to be a replication of colloquially acceptable language. Having said that, some purists might opine that the onus of correcting the moviegoer’s language falls on the filmmaker…which then presents us with a wonderfully self-deprecatory catch 22 situation….
would mean streets or goodfellas be the same if the leads spout grammatically perfect english ….?
@ 46 Lurker #12 -
“But ghar aate hi I will go roti pe daal dal do,sometimes I will go daal pe roti daal do, either way how it matters both roti & daal are going to end up in my stomach”
You must possess very good hand-eye coordination for that. No matter how I say it, it ends up on my pathloon a lot of times.
Another point that i would just like to throw out there is that within a language there are a number of dialects…..as the Indian Film Industry is predominantly Mumnai-based, there tends to be a tilt towards the bambaiyaa hindi whose speakers use random pronouns without much thought as they probably find it difficult to grasp the nuances of the gender allocation to inanimate objects that makes hindi so delightful…
Having lived in Mumbai all my life, i would tend to say train choot gaya rather than train choot gayi…..in fact most mumbaikars would use the cringe-worthy(to outsiders), train miss ho gaya!
@ 51 vinay -
let me try a few english examples. There used to be a time, when i could have the following simple exchange while repecting grammar strictures and communicating information.
Me (on the phone): Where are you?
You: I am (or the contraction I’m) at home.
If I ask the above question now, it will immediately date me as someone born before 1984, and make me lose the limited street cred I possess.
The ‘correct’ usage now is “Where you at?”
so much so, that movies have it in their taglines, like the recent Mithun’s Disco Dancer inspired Hollywood teen dancical Step Up 2, whose tagline on the poster reads, “It’s not where you from. It’s where you at.”
Also, the -ly in the adverb badly has been all but lost from the English language. “How bad do you want it?”
ab ka karen?
Evolve or be tragically Ramprasadified.
@Dabba(43)
“Characters in movies need not speak grammatically correct. they need only speak character correct.”
Right.
I have two more points to add:
1) ‘Mistakes’ can’t be chosen arbitrarily. You can not make a bengali character speak punjabified hindi.
2) The dialect chosen should be consistent throughout the film.
Abhay
Even if you speak everything correctly as per grammar, interpretation varies from place to place. Bharat main I used to say pencil rubber, par yahaan USA main pehli baar maine kaha give me a rubber sub hus pade kyonki rubber here means condom.
Like that you can’t say jug here, like jug of water because jug maane boobs.
I think Jaideep Sahni or some other lyricist wrote long essay recently about excessive use of Bambaiyya & Urdu in Hindi songs and why it is not a good thing because people stop using normal hindi words. eg. yesterday in aajtak TV anchor goes mausam suhana hai, aap ghar ke bahar niklo aur mausam ka lutf utao. Usually, they would say anand, but these days apparently there is no anand, only lutf.
@ neeraja
true dat.
@wb
hmmph! will have to watch it again. Hope I am not confusing with some other AB flick, people here will kill me! :D
@lurker#12
I know people don’t say jal or vayu etc. but people also do not say tum paani piyenge or tum paani piyoge to a girl, right?
Agree that the basic purpose of a language is communication but then basic purpose of clothes is to cover oneself, why design all kinds of ‘weird’ clothes?
Vivah reflects Barjatya sahab’s knowledge of real India.
@ dabba (#55):
That’s my point. Follow the usage. Grammar is nothing but a set of rules based on usage. The example given by Neeraja “tumhaaraa help” goes against the normal usage and hence is irritating to ears. It is the writer’s job to get it right. Unless a character is supposed to speak a particular dialect, the standard forms or usage should be used.
@Vinay(47)
Thanks for your comment and taking the post in right spirit.
I saw that survey…quite interesting.
@Abhay K(52)
yes the situaton is circular and I did say that distorted language is acceptable if it suits the character.
Of all the comments I agree with Trassie (t!) the most. Yes, languages are evolving. It is the same in every language.
It is also probably because of the cosmopolitan environment we all live in and the exposure we all get nowadays. It is not that one doesn’t speak a language correctly. We all have a gigantic dictionary of assorted words from various languages in our heads. So when we speak, we end up using words from other languages, grammar goes for a toss, stree-ling/pu-ling is murdered, etc.
I am a tamilian, born in Chennai, spent my childhood in Dubai, learnt Arabic, took Marathi as my third language cos Tamil was hard, had Guju/Mallu neighbours, lived briefly in Cyprus, graduated from Pune, lived in Bombay and am settled in Sydney since 2002 with Punju friends. I can read, write and speak 5 languages. But please do not expect me to be grammatically correct in any of these.
Similarly, our industry is filled with people who have settled in Bombay and have varied backgrounds. This has made English the chosen language for communication and perhaps script-writing. I don’t see anything wrong in this.
Languages have evolved. As Dabba says, English has changed. Hindi has changed too. Welcome to the ‘new’ Hindi.
anand.g// dude! not sure if you’ve realized it, but with that one comment you’ve just put your whole life story online :) anyways, that’s one awesome journey you’ve had. cheers.
@ wb - I know. It was almost like a pitch. Do you think someone would want to make a movie on it? Hehe! Btw - aren’t you in Aus as well?
You had me at ‘grammer’.
It’s spelled grammar!
anand.g// movie? perhaps. but you need to polish it a bit though. may be if you spice it up by adding your dob, passport#, medicare#, c-card#, etc. etc.
wb - I said movie.. not scam! But thanks for mentioning medicare. You reminded me of a few o/s claims.
anand.g// :) with weirdos lurking around the dark alleys you can never be too sure mate. lest we speak to ahtcc.
@ wb - Hahaha… so you are from oz! AHTCC is useless. Unless you are working for them i.e. Where abouts? And do u speak good hindi?
@neeraja .. srijanatmakta comes close .. but maulikta = originality
the word ’srijan’ is actually more on the lines of giving birth to something (like ‘ishwar ne srishti ka srijan kiya’)
there was a period when i realised all the reading i was doing was in english and none whatsoever in hindi .. it was then tht i started reading hindi literature also
@MP what u said is what i get upset over so many times .. fucking wannabe stars .. never will u see the stars speaking in hindi (even when the interviewer is speaking in hindi) .. atmost they’l throw in a word or two in hindi to show they know the language also .. i get so pissed off , all those ppl lining up to get awards not speaking in hindi at all .. aisa lagta hai ehsaan karte hain films mein hindi bol ke .. hrithik, abhishek no more talk in hindi on camera .. ranbir is going along the same lines and same can be said for all upcoming stars .. on top of that they have accented english now (so ’sports’ is pronounced as ’spawrts’) .. even the mr desi shreyas talpade talks in english all the time on camera (grrrrr)
actresses (joke) like shilpa shetty (and her sister shamita) will never utter a word of hindi in interviews .. fucking bitch i feel like shoving bamboo up hers whenever she opens her fake mouth and talks with her fake expressons / fake laughs etcccccccc ..
i find shahrukh and amitabh as genuine ppl .. who speak good hindi whenver required
i miss those earthy actors like mithunda/govinda who used to give interviews in hindi without fuss :(
@Neeraja: - Interesting that a stickler for grammAr got the very spelling wrong - but I guess this being english “don’t matter” - just thought you could use some help with spelling there - take it easy…..
@Chiaro Scuro
Thanks, I didn’t notice. Edited.
Now, that’s why I was saying there should be people to proof read :D
@Filmibhai
I guess all the three differ slightly in terms of usage just like creativity, originality, innovativeness.
Found this blog written by Mr. Abbas Tyrewala, ages ago, very relevant to this post :
http://abbas-tyrewala.sulekha.com/blog/post/2000/01/so-who-speaks-hindi.htm
@neeraja (38),
“But the question is, what factors govern these processes of change?”
Popularity. just take a look at the appended words on oxford for proof.
if a lot of people use something which ends up ‘being cool’ even though it is blatantly wrong grammatically, hell u make it to the dictionary.
then theres change of original meaning
examples of acceptance like these out of the top of my head…
use of ‘couple’ it used to mean ‘2′ now its also is ok to use it for ‘a few’
bootylicious
anything related to the southpaws (lefties being considered unnatural phenomena)
’sinister’
(i think dabba mentioned it in another post)
Lovely article Neeraja. My two bits… I get really irritated when people don’t use hai and hain correctly. Between 2 incorrects, ” Aap kahan ja rahi hai ?” is more irritating to me than ” Aap kahan ja rahe ho?”. There was this incident where I met a cute guy who had grown up on Shah Rukh Khan movies. Over the course of our conversation he said his favorite SRK dialogue which was most apt for me was ” Aap ki aakhen meri nani jaisi hai.” I don’t know what I was more affronted by - the fact that he thought I would fall for it or that he didn’t know how to use hai and hain. Irrespective, mild flirtation with cute guy STOPPED :-)
@Anand G(63), Dabba(55), Dpac(76)
Ok languages evolve…I agree to that.
Does that mean there are no mistakes?
Is there a way to decide what is actually in use or in DPac’s words, what is popular and what is a mistake?
@J
lol thanks. You gave up flirting with a cute guy because his Hindi wasn’t good enough?…if wrong Hindi bothers you that much you are in trouble, girl. :P
Is there a way to decide what is actually in use or in DPac
how to know what is right use and what it wrong.
if you care
you will develop a ear for right language
you will start seeing the wrong uses
they will stick out like thrones
and that will be difficult
really
enjoying a good scene in movie
and some character uses the wrong word
and you will start cribbing about the language and forget about what is going on the screen
:))
but
i suggest one to give this a try
we can make a difference between right and wrong
because there are people who care about what is right
if nobody cares about what is right
soon there will be no standard to check what is right and what is wrong
and language will become a hotch-potch
8-x
everybody speaking his own version of hindi :-ss
neerja.thanks for this article.
mere paas to hajaron aise kisse hai.filhaal…doli saja kar rakhna mein akshy khanna ek ashaar sunate hai,jo ghalib ka hai…
original aise hai…
is sadgi par kaun na mar jaaye aie khuda
ladte hain aur haath mein talwaar bhi nahin
akshay khanna ne padha…
is sadgi par kaun na mar jaaye
aie khuda ladte ho,aur haath mein talwaar bhi nahin.
@ajay brahmatmaj
hahaha punctuation mistakes are always funny.
@vivek
Are Hindi dictionaries/grammar books updated regularly based on popular usage?
I have seen a lot of bollywood movies but i do not understand why these people use more persian words than hindi disgusting.
Loco gente en india.