Manorama – an Addendum & a Re-View
iView Author :
Thani(from Project i View)
Email :
thanikachalam [at] gmail.com
City/Country:
Mumbai, India
Manorama – an Addendum & a Re-View :
Star Comics, in the 80’s, used to run a series of titles around Sunny Gavaskar & his myriad adventures. There Sunil Gavaskar would tackle his villains with great aplomb & still make it in time to lead India at the cricket stadium where Sunny would take on different kind of monsters in plotting victory for India. Sunny was a detective too but a cricketer first. And he, in the Comics, didn’t have to hide/moonlight his detective side. Most of these adventures would culminate in Sunny saving the World from the baddies & be ready for the toss at the Brabourne with his opposite numbers Ian Botham or Viv Richards. Fans of other prominent members of the then Indian Cricket team were hopeful of their favorite cricketer unleashing their Detective/ Superhero abilities too. With ‘Manorama SFU’ you suddenly wonder if Dilip Vengsarkar has indeed made his fictional avatar, played by his almost look-alike – a mustachioed Abhay Deol.
Likewise, in ‘Foucault’s Pendulum’ Umberto Eco talks of one of his protagonists [Causabon] being the ‘Sam Spade of Publishing’. We’ve had Bogart playing Hammett’s immortal Detective Sam Spade in John Huston’s ‘Maltese Falcon’ but I wondered if a ‘Sam Spade of Publishing’ has ever graced the screen, and when he eventually did what he looked like & went about doing. In Navdeep’s ‘Manorama SFU’ we stumble upon Abhay Deol’s SatyaVeer Randhawa who’s a very very likely candidate. SV, as Abhay Deol’s gorgeous Screen wife Gul Panag calls him, is a Self-published writer of a ‘failure of a Detective Novel’ called ‘Manorama’. As the film progresses one inevitably wonders what kind of a novel ‘Manorama’ is. Inevitable ‘coz the novel figures more than once as a crucial clue in the Detective’s journey in the film. We learn that SV seems to have had great ambitions for himself as a writer, having the confident assurance of revealing to his readers the Where exactly [& the When] of the titular protagonist Manorama’s death. And this information SV teases in the 32nd page of a book that weighs atleast 300 pages.
The world of Self-published writing operates like this:
You write a book. You take it to publishers. Your talent indifferentiated, you’re asked about your earlier published work. You tell them that this present work would be the ‘previous published book’ for future publishers. Not good enough. Eventually you’re doled-out a condescending publishing-deal where you supposedly meet half the cost for the book’s publication in exchange for a promise to split profits two-ways. In reality what you’ve got yourself into is bearing the whole cost of the publication process, & never in control of the book’s sales figures. The publisher prints a limited number, and owing to its poor marketing & placement you end up with the responsibility of selling about half the printed number of books. Most writers make a bonfire of their vanity with the remainder of the books [should find out what Oz did with his ‘The MBA Gang’].
What SV in ‘Manorama SFU’ has smartly done is create his own doppelganger by writing ‘Manorama’ with a pen-name. And it is this particular side to him that brings him back the investment on his book – his first commissioned detective work pays him money in excess of what he might have had to accrue on his first novel. This pen-name also buys him access to a PRESS CARD that legitimizes his nosing-around activity. The timing couldn’t have been any perfecter. SV happens to be a Public Servant in the middle of an enquiry into his bribe-taking & hence asked to cool his heels off of work. We have in SV a very interesting Noir Detective – A Public Servant & a Private Investigator.
Public Ear – Private Eye.
Noir Cinema with a detective as its protagonist requires the film to begin its proceedings with the commissioning of an investigation that hires the Detective to snoop & dig around as much as he is capable of. Ability to handle the unraveling plays as important a role as skills in detection. What applies to the detective also does apply to the audience. The film then becomes an existential journey of the Detective, & the viewer’s too. There is a constant mutual catch-up that exists between what the detective knows & what the viewer does. Navdeep’s detective is very generous, in sharing whatever he comes to find-out with the viewer.
A-nother Noir Cinema convention has been its period setting. Though ‘Manorama’ is set in our present time it feels & plays like a period piece. This effect is achieved immediately in Locating the film in small-town India that seems to look, feel, smell & sound like lagging a couple of decades behind the India of the cities. The difficulty in making a Detective do Detective work is evidenced in the film’s END Credits where the Security for the filming Cast & Crew seems to have been provided by ‘Trinity Investigators’. India is a country that is swarming with Detective Agencies that mostly do ‘Security Servicing’ & ‘Matrimonial Testimonializing’.
It is indeed commendable to be pulling-off a genre of cinema that has no precedental tradition in the country. ‘Manorama SFU’ does that with great performances & delicate crafting. ‘Manorama SFU’ is a Noir film that also qualifies as a Western & a RoadMovie at the sametime. A RoadMovie that promptly warns you – that the Road here is a Mirage.
More reasons to check-out ‘Manorama SFU’:
An interiorising Abhay Deol deftly guiding you through the journey.
Gul Panag playing Abhay’s delicious wife.
Raima Sen teaching the advantages of small things such as an aquarium & Ludo game as seduction-accessories.
Sarika as an adventuress who’d probably go after a man claimed by her astrologer to have been the love of her life in her previous birth in remote Alexandria.
Yana Gupta as the stuff that fantasies are made of.
A crackle of a Vinay Pathak. Whoever came-up with his lines!
Anurag Kashyap
Abhay Deol
Dibakar Banerjee
Hansal Mehta
Khalid Mohamed
Kundan Shah
Anish Kuruvilla
Jaideep Verma
Manish Gupta
Navdeep Singh
Bhavani Iyer
D. Santosh
Onir
Ashvin Kumar
Ramu Ramanathan
Sudhir Mishra
Pankaj Advani
Revathy
Saurabh Shukla
Shilpa Shukla
Sujoy Ghosh
Suparn Verma
Santosh Sivan
Shashank Ghosh
Shivajee
Pavan Kaul
Partho Sen-Gupta
Prroshant Naryannan
Sam Langoria
Satish Kasetty
Thats a pretty interesting review. I had to skip parts of it as I have not seen Manorama yet.
When will it get released in LA?
Nice review. Will look out for more write-ups by the author.
Thani – interesting cross references. I too believe that Navdeep possibly has cleared the path for future film-makers for this genre. I took 6 people with me and had another 14 go for this movie (almost equal gender ratio)- the reaction from them, the first half is too slow. Well, people aren’t interested in character development. Navdeep – if you are listening, that’s the voice of the market.
Thani – thanks for refreshing Star comics memories. I think Bahadur stories were closer to the landscape
great review thani..you should do it more often
Of all the reviews for M-SFU this is really different!Thani ur take and unusual analysis now goads me to somehow make time to watch the movie asap..This is different!Hope to watch the movie without any conditioning or prejudice..
Thanks Anurag. Looking forward to your ‘No Smoking’ next month, & your ‘WELLness/WETness NOiR’ next year…
04-13 PingPong.. Hmmmm..
thanks Mainak, Omprakash Seresta & Subrat… Navdeep’s definitely rocked some!
@krysh
thanks again, & if the review’s piqued your curiosity – a minor job done. let us know how it went for you..
Thani, this is quite different from regular reviews and a very interesting one. And yes, Abhay Deol does have resemblance to Vengsarkar because of his moustache. Haven’t watched this movie yet. Rajshri will be releasing it online on 28th, will have to wait till then. Good post.
WELLness/WETness :d:d
welcome Thani …please do a follow-up on this with a write-up on NOIR….and the cinema from your motherland, FRANCE[it was your motherland in the last birth as you claim ] :d……..bring em on…great to have you here
YUVRAJ- SIX HIT BONDER, whew! via thrashing Australians we are in WC final to push Pakistan- six feet under,< :-p
sorry, Indian are all about passion for C,
Thani congrats, nice write up, cricket along with cinema. I have seen Manorama- six feet under at festival and liked your article,will definitely watch it again after the finals…who ever wins. l-)Apart frm Pak!<:-p
Thani,
Great, literate review. Nice to see you actually analysing the film. Looking forward to more of your writing.
Thani
Next time u make passionate love to a women …make her say
S’il vous pla
Hey Navdeep..I saw the film..kudos to your approach towards Noir Cinema essentials..I don’t know whether you have watched Ray’s way of dealing with Detective stories..it was Feluda who was his detective and inevitably he used to get caught up in the web of deciet and murder..the manner in which he went about solving the mystery was very personal and egoistic..that works even now with readers or viewers today..I was a great fan of James Hadley Chase novels and even now buy Lee Child novels to get my fill of the down and out nosey man coming out trumps!!
This is precisely the reason why your movie got to me. I am a sucker for the slow unravelling of the plot through intricate scene build ups..you have excelled here..in fact it is somewhat of a landmark in Indian Cinema..for every character has played its part in moving the story forward..Gul as that kind of a nagging wife was as much needed (contrary to some of well known critics’ views)as she was the one who was unknowingly egging him on..those prods to his ego and self worth resulting in dusting off his scooter ( Great touch!!) and starting all over again..I noticed that each scene was a prelude to the next scene..no disjoint..no excess..well done..Yes, there shall be guys who would carp about the speed but this kind of cinema is involving the viewer in the story and will have to give some time..here, you did well to move the story to an interesting location to provide good visuals while you allowed the viewer to chew on some thoughts..Chinatown,I don’t know..never seen that..so hardly bothered..move to some good festivals..subtitle it and dub it in French, Italian, English and Spanish..move to some good markets and get it released in some off beat centres around the globe..there is a money spinner here..look how Buddhadev Dasgupta is peddling his “Kaalpurush”.
Abhay is good..Gul is great..tell her that..I mean doing a whole role in old nighties..Indian movies coming of age,man..what touch!!..Kulji is bang on..his dialogues were interesting..those two goons..fabulous! Raima was nice too..that forced love scene was contrived looking..I don’t know whether that was your idea..but it could have been better..
I reserve a special line for Vinay..he reminded me of Paresh saab of Dacait..this was so good..Of course..he had all the one liners..but what finesse..what body language!!
Bloody good movie..Now let me go to Manish’s page applaud Loins too..that too was awesome!!!
Thanks Indraneel.
Haven’t seen any of Ray’s Feluda films but have read the stories. Someone mentioned (after Osian)that they got a sense of Ray in the film and that’s the greatest compliment I’ve ever got!!:d
As for the marketing, the producers have their own ideas and I don’t have much control there. gave them plenty of ideas, including the European marketing thing but it doesn’t seem to be their cup of tea.
great review Thani,hope to see more reviews frm you……….!ur review has made me to watch this movie today!
Navdeep..don’t give up on the European thing..Know that some producers are most happy just getting the movie released and making the usual bucks over music, TV, theatricals, mobile and In movie placements..but yaar..this can do well if dubbed in European languages..its got Rajasthan yaar!!!..some markets shall just drool…keep trying..give Onir’s and MBN example..do something..unke bete ko kidnap kar lo..kaho to Bihar se Rangdaar bulwaoon??
As for the Ray feel..its so apparent..anybody observing closely shall get it..its there even in your shot taking..dunno if you are influenced by him..or both of you are influenced by common sources..lol..that can’t be possible..can it??
Thanks Navdeep. The damning fucker [Abhay's introduction for moi] gets to do a lil’ bit of un-damning too.. thanks PFC & AK!
You have made a Long-distance runner of a film, & i see your fingers firmly crossed.. Best Navdeep.
@Mainak
Je Ne Sais Pas.. Je Ne Sais Pas.. Du Tout..
when is it releasing in the UK/US nri market? or is it?
when is the movie releasing for the UK/US nri market or is it?
@thani,you piqued my curiosity and i saw the movie early morning so called breakfast show with 17 other viewers at Fame Adlabs..I am not going to make any references to homage,inspiration or lifts from Chinatown..Though the unmistakeble signs were littered all over still i focused to see it as a first time viewer. For me M-SFU simply did not lift off the surface level..Things are in place as per the genre..evocative cinematography especially outdoors,Abhay at his vulnerable and natural best..Gul Panag doing the nagging wife routine..things not being what they seem to be..those three inventive and tongue-in-cheek scenes with sitting on an adjustable chair,insurance guy giving his card to Abhay at the Police station and a contractor firing a guy for gross irresopnsibility in smoking a beedi near oil godown and then coming to know he never worked there..Navdeep being efficient with his cinematic grammar..ok..beyond that what..I think the major let down is very thin fleshing out of characterisations..And then things are explained through one too many voice overs and discovered at convenience..The setting of the story could be Ladakh or Bastar and still it would work(it may have rather enhanced the experience visually simply being different from poster boy of Indian tourism Rajasthan)..One of the two goons working at the behest of minister Rathore(Kulbhushan Kharbanda) in one of the scenes while staking out Abhay’s house remarks something like ‘Log raat ko bistar-bistar khelte hain, yeh ludo khel rahe hain aur aisa lagta hai hum doordarshan dekh rahe hain..’I think he hit nail on the head..It did come out like an one hour TV episode stretched double the time..And then at another point the same goon surprises Abhay at his home by saying ‘Kyun KLPD ho gaya kya?’..It summed up my feelings for the film..As if this was not enough at one point Vinay Pathak makes a remark during one of the binging sessions at one of the old,vacant haveli,abandoned fort or makabra or whatever(i wondered why Vinay and Abhay could not have their drinking sessions at home or some desi theka/baar)that Curiosity kills cat…It cemented my piqued expectations..Hope Navdeep comes out of this six feet under stuff and raises the bar with his next..If only it is non-controversial script with no Chinaman stalking it, i think Navdeep can go places as he defintely has good potential.
Sorry everyone – I thought Manorama was trash – terrible film, and it got what it deserved at the box office. I mean you’re remaking Chinatown today and making it wimpier than the original??? The director should also read Paul Schrader’s notes on noir to understand that Film Noir is not a Genre but a style, and today after the Coen Brothers and a host of other directors have finished deconstructing the style, is this all you could come up with. And Abhay Deol is completely miscast – Just take a look at Eastern Promises and compare this sorry excuse for a film with it.
Today we have no reason to make excuses for our films comparing with Korean, Mexican, East European and Canadian films the way our Olympic team compares with theirs. The same way we jump for joy when one woman becomes world no 30 in tennis or P.T. Usha comes fourth in an Olympic race, we are quick to heap praises on our “andhon mein kaana raja” filmmakers – You either make a Bollywood film that is better than all other Bollywood films, or if you wanna make alternative cinema like the filmmakers on this site, then be prepared to be compared to Cronenberg, Park Chan Wook, Guillermo Del Toro Danis Tanovic or Alexander Sokhurov.
Navdeep, as Edgar Allen Poe once said, “Any man who has the courage to be honest can create a masterpiece” and you have displayed no courage for honesty, and neither have your gutless technically challenged amateur actors.
Today if a filmmaker is afraid to show his actor jerking off or saying “motherfucker, I’m gonna cut your cock off and stuff it down your throat” – which is what a gangster would say in real life, Not the fake watered down dialog in your movie – Then he’s dead!
I think instead of cling on to Anurag Kashyap and gangs false bravado and incestuous back slapping, look at what your contemporaries are doing world wide and ask your self if your film can compare with the best of them in ANY department,… Or make Om Shanti Om and become the Kabaddi champion of the world instead of an Olympic also ran.
thanks krysh, your promise of
Gurpreet,
So, in your book, if you can’t finish tops in the race there’s no point in taking part in it?
I make films for the joy of making films.
Is Manorama cutting edge, world class cinema? Of course, it’s not.
Yup, I’m not Cronenberg, Park Chan Wook, Guillermo Del Toro Danis Tanovic or Alexander Sokhurov. Never claimed to be. Just not in their league. Again, never claimed to be.
I made the film to the best of my abilities, within the constraints of the system I function in and the budgets I’m afforded. Some people liked it, other’s didn’t. Fair enough.
Instead of raging against the machine, I suggest you try a constructive tone. Agreed there’s a problem in our films. So, what’s your solution.
I have a fine, edgy script in my drawer. Got a million dollars?
- Just because PFC is a platform where viewers and filmmakers can talk to each other doesn’t mean that it give some of the readers here the right to be rude, be obnoxious and insulting. This is a party open to all, but just like any other party, there’s a “Bouncer” check. Have a different opinion but do respect. It’s just plain stupid to think you can do whatever you want in this party. Say what you would like but have the courtesy to say it in a constructive way.
gurpreet..i guess you have never tried to make a film and it’s damn easy to be a couch critic.. go out with your world challenging script and try finding a producer.. in manorama the censors cut out madarchod’s and chutiyas.. try dealing with the indian morality and then the governing bodies.. you can’t change things overnight.. most great films today are made in a country where there is no indusrstry.. cinema is individual.. it’s a collective here..
would love to see it happening the way you say it.. isn’t it everyone’s dream for that change to come.. but until then either we bring ourselves in a position to be able to do that or leave this country.. lekin kya karein yeh country chhootti nahin ..
in korea the change could come in because the government started supporting it.. in thailand and srilaka and romania it’s the government that helps bring change in cinema.. shoot in those countries, all you need is a blanket permission..here you need permission for everything and then pay the cops.. your utopian world doesn’t exist here my friend.. i have tried for years.. we are doing it slowly and hopefully we will change your mind about our backslapping comraderie and the gang.. slowly.. one step at a time.. thanks.. do keep dropping in..
“I have a fine, edgy script in my drawer. Got a million dollars?” hahaha……Well said Navdeep
btw gurpreet where did u see the film.. it didn’t release in NY
Gurpreet,
Except your comment on Anurag, I agree with every written word. Yours was a welcome and different comment not seen much. I agree with Anurag about limitations but we can again look at several of Hrishikesh Mukerjee’s movies and see and understand that in this very system, several path breaking movies have been made and created. Also look at Aamir, he had confidence and self belief. He worked in his own style and had fights with Yash Raj and RGV. He still stuck to his way of working and gave hits even with someone as bad(can anyone be more bad?) Vikram Bhatt. People like Bimal Roy, Yash Chopra, Mehboob khan, govind nehlani, Gulzar, Raj Kapoor,Vijay Anand,Benegal,Bhansali, (best ever), even Raj kumar santoshi, Hirani, have been making and will continue to make quality cinema.
So system is not all the problem. As in sports, people in bollywood lack quality. It is as simple as that.
thats the best response i have ever read here navdeep(largely due to ur sense of humor) ..way to go! gurpreet did make sense to a large extent in this comment ..but all of it is easier said than done. but yes if someone has the resources available to make any film , then yes what gurpreet says makes sense. though gurpreet the whole thing involving anurag and the gang was in bad taste. if you are angry then there are better ways to express it.
@anurag so true ,great films can only be made in a country where there is no ‘film industry’ …but some american independent films have managed to come out of the shadows of hollywood …we are not a rich country but even we can do that.
The (best ever) in my comment above was for vijay Anand and not Bhansali.
Navdeep,
To me the problem with our movies is due to absence of any cinematic education. I mean FTTI is a joke now. I think what is required is people who get script writing,screenplay, direction etc education from well respected institutes in other parts of world and then start making hindi films. I read about your background and we need more such people. Good institutes and education is what is most important and when this meets passion, the result has to be good.
the best teacher to the best writers, filmmakers , has always been life.. not an institute.. life is the best institution..
best films these days come out of countries that are falling apart.
from anger, depression, destitution, depravity..
we indians right now are having a party and discovering shopping malls and that shows in our films..
@Jwalant
How is FTII a joke? i mean, is it a funny joke?
actually, i give a fuck about FTII.. but still, the joke – i’m all ears, & yours..
jwalant FTII is a joke????
any reasons for your comment?
Exactly. All these institutes world over has mostly produced jokers. I said mostly so jhanda pakadke mere upar math girna.
Cinema comes from the hunger in your stomach and the fire in your ass. Cinema comes from the heart, cinema comes from your head!
If someone learns film making without passion only just to belong to the group, it would look like movies made by Apoorva Lakhia.
agree with Anurag. though I am not someone who has achieved anything in this field so far (hope to do so in near future). but I think the real hero of a film is it’s script and a good script comes from a good idea and a good idea comes from observation. i think ideas which come from observing things around u is more realistic and appeals to the audience.
also the actors have to learn from observation, after all they play a character which is real person on screen and is like real people.
Anurag, that’s quite a ridiculous thing to say – just because Gurpreet is not a filmmaker doesn’t disqualify him from criticizing a film or make his comments less valid. It’s like saying, if someone is not a chef, they can’t say that a dish tastes like shit, or if someone is not a painter, they cant call a painting horrible….it goes on….filmmaking is not an activity appointed by god …its just a choice you make in life, like the choice to be a doctor, or writer or whatever…anyone can criticize anything in a free world…maybe in India you are not familiar with the concept…?
abc aka Gurpreet aka… whatever… why don’t you talk straight with your true identity… why does it have to be done in such mysterious ways using proxy server to mask yourself and keep coming back on PFC using different identities. It puts your own intentions of commenting in such manner in doubt… do you have any personal axe to grind here with someone?
and Jwalant, I couldn’t agree more, there is a basic lack of quality in Bollywood which Anurag is blaming on the ’system’. How come Ray,Benegal and Ghatak made the films they did, the system was much stronger then,wasn’t it?
till seventies it was a different world.. we can make good films and we are trying our best..sorry to embarass your americanness..
What is a good script if screenplay/direction is poor? Can hunger/strife teach one to write good screenplay/direction/music/cinematography/SFX/dialogues?
Script is an integral part but without above mentioned areas, it is nothing and good screenplay/direction/ enhances even a poor script
there was no system then.. and it wasn’t easy then either.. but much more easier than now.. ghatak wasn’t successful when alive.. he is now revered after his death.. and his films went nowhere when he made them..there were the other gurpreets who couldn’t see him for what he was.. benegal had NFDC.. and believe me it’s all beginning to happen.. the most positive constructive statement you can make is by making a film that shows the way.. crib when you have achieved.. makes more sense..
Ray could do it, and hats off to him.. but we are not trying to be ray.. we are being ourselves and by just being that we appeal to some and are abhorred by the rest..
you are talking technical jwalant.. but the main prerequisite for anything is imagination.. that is not taught.. no filmmaker does the sfx himself.. and people who do sfx are artists who do it to bring alive the directors imagination.. so does everybody else.. the bring it alive and add to it..
for music you need a good ear.. for cinematography you need to be able to see what others don’t and not through the lens.. lens only composes what you see..with your eyes.. in your head..
film schools will make you a scholar and they teach theories.. and filmmakers write ideas and stories and not theories..
films existed before the filmschools came into being..
filmschools are good to make you aware, like every other school..
Anurag,
I and lot of others cant make a good film, Leave about making but we cannot even write lyrics or dialogues of a fulllength feature film but we know a good film when we see it whether it is a low budget film, an art film or from yash raj/bhansali.
If a filmmaker wants his film to be seen and people to shell out their hard earned Rs/dollar/pound, he has to make quality film. In this internet era, the question most of us seek is why should we go and watch it in theater when the same film is available on dvd/net/torrent? What has already happened to music industry wil happen to cinema ( and specially to low budget movies) and they will be seen on r ipped off mediums. Infact why should anyone watch a hindi film when high quality hollywood/European cinema is available evrywhere? Its not about americanness.Its about knowing quality. 90% of bollywood would shut shop if 90% on Indians become educated/understand and appreciate quality cinema and have access to first day hollywood release everywhere in India
When Maniratnam made Pallavi Anu Pallavi, he did not know shit about film making. He had a great script. He approached Balu Mahendra and requested him to help him in the execution. Whatever Maniratnam had visualized, Balu Mahendra helped in bringing it to life…but without Maniratnam’s imagination, Balu Mahendra is just another cinematographer.
When Ram Gopal Varma made “Siva”, he knew fuck about film making. He requested S.Gopal Reddy to help him in all the technical matters. S.Gopal Reddy is technically brilliant, but when he directed his own movies later, none could touch the finesse of “Siva”
When Anurag Kashyap made “Black Friday”, he was just a writer but he had Nataraja Subramaniam, an ad film maker as a friend. Natty then played an active part in bringing alive Anurag Kashyap’s imagination.
Buddy…I hope you got the point…if not, well…you ain’t got what it takes to be a director! haha!
attaboy Jwalant…Anurag ANYONE can criticize ANYTHING …. like I said, just because one is not a chef, doesn’t mean one cannot say a dish tastes like shit!
So your consistently weak refrain to critics that they should first make a great film before criticizing others reeks of cultural backwardness and myopia….
@abc123
In your earlier comment –
Are you suggesting the path of the Ray, Ghatak, Benegal triumverate? I can’t make-up my mind as to who’ll be more embarassed by this unholy union.. Ghatak definitely would.. Ray would too, i guess..
. Ray got his kin, from the Ministry of Roadworks to fund the film simply because the English translation of ‘Pather Panchali’ read ‘Song of the Road’.
. Ghatak, for all his brilliant films, came to FTII with a hand-picked/recommended posting (of Vice-Prinicipal) from the then i&B minister in Nehru’s cabinet – Mrs Indira Gandhi
. Benegal – played the konkani boy nephew of Gurudutt.. the less said the ..
I don’t mean to overlook their contributions.. But Man, the generation that took to film-making after a life-changing viewing of ‘Pather Panchali’ has failed us.. Evidently.. we wouldn’t been in the pits that we have for the last 3 decades..
You must acknowledge that things are looking up for Indian Cinema.. like never before.. And cheer the films that have brought-about this space.. If you can’t, a real pity. ‘coz you gonna end up having not recognized good work while you could, & in your lifetime. You’d end up a more confused desi than you guys have turned yourselves into.
I’m sure cinema interests you. I don’t mean just as a viewer but maybe something more substantial, & concreter. You wouldn’t be here otherwise. But you started with what gurpreet did. But neither of you bothered to voice what your specific problems with the film under this post ‘Manorama SFU’ is..
We’re all brothers in this brotherhood, & we have few sisters too.. But none of the sisters have visited here, or left any trace of the visitation.. Let’s talk man.. you & i abc [could you care more to choose an avatar here. this could change your life, & mine
]
Gurpreet. I understand where you are coming from. Very valid frustration if you are watching all those great films. But at the same time you have to be a realist like those films you like. Things are not gonna change overnight. Every step is a big step towrds that goal. Just look at Nagesh. His HB changed everything. If that same film was released today people might laugh at the ameuterness. You can see how much he has evolved from IQBAL.
And all those great films in 80s were funded by NFDC & other govt bodies.
Or just wait for 3 years for my film:)
Thani,
I agree. Things are changing and that is happening for good only. I am very positive that from one of these newer generation directors, a path breaking film is on the anvil that will change entire balance in bollywood. I just hope it happens soon. btw, Rakesh mehra and Hirani have done it. Although they had support from big banneer but their ideas were novel and they worked big time.
Jwalant, gald you agree with me, selectively though. But nothing about agreeing/disagreeig with my review here. Or your FTII joke..
What i don’t understand is that you guys seem to be regulars here on PFC, but still shy away from acknowledging Anurag’s films. You don’t have to is what i mean. I understand a lil’ bit about where you’re coming from. That it’s too obvious to be nodding at Anurag’s films, at a forum he’s much much loved et all. But man, Black Friday. What a film! A film that has brought film fanatic run-aways back to Bombay. Moi counted! To in-a-lot-of-ways-godforsaken Bombay. This is where the action is. And few films have shown the way in this direction like Black friday has. We could have a-nother dedicated post running if you please to engage in the topic, Oz would oblige trust me.
or even anybody-else up to contest Black friday’s excellence. Its role in giving us a film we take genuine pride in.. ??? We’re ON man, you like it or NOT..
The subject of this post ‘Manorama SFU’ is open too.. we must remember..
where’s beloved abc123-alpha-beta-roger????
thani, you are mistaken…Just delve into PFC articles…
btw..I recently saw Path to 9/11. It was a 4 hour 23 minutes feature / mini series whatever you call it. You can say that each and every second of the film kept me transfixed!
I immediately remembered Anurag Kashyap’s Black Friday. Brilliant in it’s own self, I felt BF was moving ahead in a very impersonal way.(I still felt it’s an awesome movie, don’t doubt that) I was not connected, whereas Path to 9/11 had something where I was deeply and emotionally connected to all the characters….Maybe I am wrong….
anyone whose not been to film school will say its not necessary, film is a language and the medium has certain pre reqs one must understand before applying ur imagination to it, every story has an architecture and invisible rhythms that make it work, understanding the language and then expressing it in your own way is where a “real” film school comes in. i abhor anyone who says all you need in imagination, life exp to make good films, yea thats the fuel but u still have the engine and the piston to make it all work.
lack of quality film education reflects on the work, film making is like poetry (esp now) every1 can write/make one, but the question is who make the most interesting/effective one qualifies to be called a filmmaker, ofcourse my 5 year old nephew writing last word rhyming poetry cannot be compared to TS eliot, the point i am trying to get across is Film is a vast complicated beautiful medium, it requires years of study, understanding to grasp it and exploit its magic, u can make films without it but then again my poetry thoery will hold still.
please don’t be arrogant about the medium, u/we’re all secondary to it
anurag, navdeep and all the fellow filmmakers in here
after reading comments from the gurpreets etc in here, all i say is develop a thick skin, its a part of the bizz
anurag u cannot criticise someone’s ability to call work crap, theyr fully in their right to do so , the gurpreets etc have a right to their opinions , we as indie filmmakers have to understand that when an audience watches a film they give a ratzass about how the film was made, the producer buttfuckin us whilst gettin a blow from the studio, how we sold our left kidney to fund that money shot we wanted etc etc, they as an audience see the film standalone and we cant expect them not to, we have to accept it as being a part of the business and not get defensive about it. we dont need to, we’r the lucky mothafuckers getting to make films instead of just being the audience!!
gabriel garcia , ‘we’re the lucky mothafuckers…!” wow now that really reeks of arrogance! thanks for your vote of confidence in our right to say what we think, but do you honestly think you are such a lucky mothafucka because you make something that people happen to watch….do you realize that most people watch films when they have absolutely nothing to do in life? And that many people in the audience may be far, far more sophisticated and intelligent than you could ever hope to be…real brains, artists, scientists,doctors ..the whole of humanity..etc.It is so fuckin narrow minded and arrogant to suggest that you are holier and somehow superioir to everyone else because you’ve managed to put a few frames together in a sequence…this is not the beginning and end of the universe my friend..! The world outside the narrow confines of your cocoon is falling apart at the seams (read a newspaper sometimes) while you intellectually masturbate on pfc….
‘we’re the lucky mothafuckas’! wow that is so fuckin arrogant! most people watch films when they have nothing better to do in life…and many people in your audience may be way more sophisticated and intelligent than you are … any moron can make a film, but not any moron can save a life, or make the world a better place…so while you’re intellectually masturbating in here , the world outside is being shot to hell…read the fuckin newspapers sometimes.
Also to understand democracy in filmmaking , read about the ‘Border Film Project’ which put cameras in the hands of a hundred untrained people and made a masterpiece from it….I suggest , live your life more, and dont tell people what they should and shouldn’t criticize….anyone has the right to criticize anything.
Black Friday may be a good film in the cinematically starved environment of India, but in the west, there’s a hundred such films every month…all you have to do is turn on IFC or Sundance Channel and its in your face 24 hours a day
LOL dude “abc123″ getta grip, its your own suggetion that we’r “holier than thou” and “superior” LOL i never said that, u interpreted it for reason that i should refrain from getting into , a surgeon will always be happier on the surgery table then not, and so will a scientist, a “real brain” (LMAO) etc if ur a filmmaker at heart u are a lucky mofo to be makin em instead of sittin jackin off or ranting bout em, its nice to read your interpretation about what i said…. it speaks volumes about u and your sense of self esteem LOL
its also nice that ya take out all this time on a forum dedicated to “the few frames of sequences put together” that you watch when you got nothing else to do ….LMFAO
god bless your soul “abc123″
123abc
hahahaha…nice to see you still agitated and defensive , lets talk about “making films” and the “border film project” , “film masterpieces” made on untrained hands once you graduate and get your high school diploma
again your second half of your rant has nothing to do with anything i said, refer back to my earlier post on “interpretations” LOL
dont gimme that “in the west” crap, iam in “the west” and ya 90% of sundance is crap
“any person can make a film”
right
do send me your “youtube” link of “films” read not video’s or uploaded quicktime files but “35mm FILM” LOL
i’ll gladly learn alot from it…i promise
and ya best of luck with saving the world “your my HERO”
LOL
Anurag,
Excuses, excuses – the collective, budget problems , censorship, the government…. pleaseeeee – Louis Bunuel had to deal with Franco, what about the films made in the Communist Block in the 70s, what about Iran? And China has worse censorship and budget problems, and only a small percent of Korean Cinema is made with government support, And Robert Rodriguez making El Mariachi for $7000…. The only one who I think pushed the envelope and created something that was genuinely honest was Shekhar Kapoor with Bandit Queen. And he could escape from censorship problems because the film was good enough and honest enough to be marketed to a Non- Indian audience abroad, and so could also afford to go to court and get a release a year later even in India.
Navdeep since you yourself have admitted your film’s no masterpiece I rest my case, and please don’t ever make a film again that you don’t believe is a masterpiece (Unless you plan to only show it to your friends) – its the least you can do for your audience
I have no axe to grind with you or Navdeep or anyone else…
But the only way I believe we can progress is to admit our sheer lack of ability to make products of international quality- the reasons for this could be myriad – lack of training, screwed up education system, socio-economic issues, etc etc, who really gives a shit – but I feel embarassed everytime I watch an Indian athlete or watch an Indian movie but not when I listen to Indian musicians , maybe because they come from a tradition of disciplined training in technique and maybe because they have the ability to translate their imagination into music…
And please take my perceived negative/angry comments positively guys, and esp Navdeep and Anurag – because I never learnt jack shit when someone praised me.
I also understand I’m a nobody and certainly not a filmmaker or anyone with special abilities or talent, but someone who loves movies, music and sport, and have finally got the opportunity to air my views on sites like this where filmmakers actually hear what their audience have to say – Would love to go on a tirade on a cricket board site read by the powers that be, as well….
bp all the film language they teach you in the film school is all written by people who have not made films..
all the filmmakers you study in film school never went to film school..
that’s exactly what it does to you.. confuses you.. makes it difficult for you to make a film.. i have rarely come across film school students who made films..especially the direction students.. it gives them a false sense of superiority and it’s below their dignity to struggle to make a film till it gets too late..
anyways it’s a long debate..will do it some other time
Gurpreet,
How so often I have felt for our music directors, specially the LP, RD, KA,SJ etc generation. They belted out gem after gem only to be ridiculed by average direction and filming. Probably each and every composition by RD is gem in itself but I hang in shame when I see most of the picturisation and our classical arena is reverred all over the world. That again comes from basic education. As you mentioned, there has been structured education for music but for most other areas, its zilch.
I am positive about the future of hindi cinema since more and more “film educated”( from outside India) are getting into filmmaking.
Says AK : “there was no system then.. and it wasn
I think it’s best to work with some great directors than going into a movie school
if there are no real directors to teach abt movie making
Gabriel, people only ‘LMAO’ excessively when the truth hits home….if you were such a spectacular talent, you would be out here in the open, proclaiming your identity…not name yourself after a Mexican writer.So what happened to YOUR self esteem now , huh?
Please spare us the b.s about your alleged filmmaking prowess. I dont have any such pretensions. I call a spade a fuckin spade. If Kashyap or anyone else expects the public to fork out their hard earned money, they better make it worth our while…and guess what , if we think it’s a piece of shit..we’re going to say so.Gabriel, it sounds to me like you never made a ‘film’ that saw the light of day..so here’s my advice – keep your day job.
anurag, vimal,
nobody teaches u film language in school, they give u the tools, exposure and the environment to develop one , film language is too personal to be taught , but yes understanding the medium and what keeps it cranking is imp and always missing, structure, beats etc are always taken for granted and that why the film comes out soggy, if u look at the filmmakers that are taiught in skool, most went to film skool , the ones that didnt were lucky enough to have learnt the medium through trial and error and it shows, bergmans journey from monika to persona, fellini b4 he hit 8 1/2 etc, in todays world wher u dont have the luxury of being givin an island and money to make watever u want, the chances of making crap films and fizzlin out are real, it happens all the time,
yes most film students are arrogant but also low on talent, the serious ones make the most of skool and it shows in there work
directing is an inert talent but u do need training to hone the skill much like sports or any other skill based activity
pls dont discount the value of learning the craft, film is a medium whr being mediocre is easy and it shows in the majority of films through untrained hands
the film students who find it “below” thier dignity to struggle it make films are the hacks, u cant generalise all
vimal
if u work with some “great” director chances are ur work will look like his, and mostly an inferior version of it, workin as an AD and as a director are very diffrn things
Gabriel, actually you have a point, I did not address the second half of my rant at you…it was directed towards the usual suspects…’the incestuous backslapping’ coterie that thrives on this platform, aptly described by Gurpreet.
But the fact that you replied four times clearly illustrates something hit home….I’m so sorry you had to ’sell your kidney or give a blow job to the producer, and get your buttfucked’ to get your film made LMAO/LMFAO/LOLLOLOLL
OL
BP,
Thanks for ur tips and informations.
I really wanted to go into a film school when I was really young.. I know that helps u to learn the technics and basic of movie making.. But Hands on experiance and reality comes from working with great directors.. and Working with different directors is better than working with one single director for decades.. Also When u make a movie its ur dream and ur ideas.. so I dont think You adapt much from other directors to make the film look like someone elses copy..
yeh , but if u dont have some spirit in ur heart,, then chances of succeed is less
hahaha “123″ again, i like how your frustration keeps creeping through presumptions based on ur crappy sense of self esteem , (nice try on using it back on me, shows ur lack of originality or rationality) gabriel is my first name garcia is my uncles, incase your refering to Gabriel Jos
vimal,
finally you have to do what you think works for you and is best for you, my observations and advice are based on my expereinces , best of luck man, and hope to see your work sometime!
Gabriel…you obviously have a serious complex dude…or else you wouldn’t have to self aggrandize yourself by braggging about how much you earn, do you also buy rims for your tires and have tattoos on your neck?..LOL..
I’ve obviously triggered some deep seated trauma – Im so sorry you had to sell that kidney,suck dick,get butt fucked and god knows what else…LOL, and you’re saying I should be kept off the streets..!LOL/LMFAO …that’s a heart breaking story baby, you should make a movie on it!
p.s – I hope it was good for you too honey
had been facing problems last night posting my comments?anyboby any clue?wanted give my opinion on wat gurpreet commented on..
BP..
me too.. hoping to see my work sometime.. hehe
I dont think it’s possible in near future.. or else I have to retire by the age of Thirty
For that I need to make enough money before 30 to an early retirement
thanks man. and what do u do ??
Ah, nice way to end your comment Vimal. Extending the Olive leaf/branch/tree. Actually it’s a worthy consideration having brief introductions to every commentator here. Atleast aliases would become so very out of fashion then.
How ’bout you guys making some peace, tell each other ’bout what you do in life & in Amevica etc..
like, on the quick..sound good?
123 reading the context on whc you’ve taken what i said and given it a literal twist, i’ll wait for you to get your high school diploma before continuing our conversatoin
and yes if you attack me personally then i’ll make you look/feel like shit even if it means throwing facts, and ofcourse its fun to see your juvenile reaction, am sure kashyup, navdeep and the “trio” as you call them all had a good laugh reading your posts
its nice to see frustrated people like you come on to forums and reek out ur frustratoin, ur stuck on ur shitty desk job, live with it do not take out ur frustration in here
and yes and if ur planning on a smart comeback please be original instead of repeating what i throw at you, its very visible sign of ur “intelligence” on a public forum
p.s do brush up your general awareness before trying to talk big mr garcia marquez is a mexican writer LOL
Thani :d/
so u can start!! come on ..
Gurpreet, in response to your comments here and on the “Sureshot highs…” post.
I agree with you that one should always compare oneself to the best there is. So, if you are an athlete, compare yourself against those that run your event the fastest – not your local state runners that you can beat. If you make a noir film, compare yourself to the best noir films out there. I don’t think Anurag or Navdeep are disagreeing.
But I think there’s also a process to getting there. You have to walk before you can run. And you have to run well before you can win the Olympics.
So, the question is how you approach the interim period. When someone is trying and does better than before, but still not at “Olympic” level, do you cheer them on for the progress or do you spit on them b/c it is not Olympic?
I think the approach you see most people take on PFC is the former
Gurpreet, abc123, 123, etc.
While your youthful angst is charming, I’m not sure exactly what your point is. For any argument to be cogent it needs to have a core thought.
I don’t think Anurag said you can’t criticize if you don’t make films, that’s your own inference. You pay your 150 bucks and you have the right to an opinion. No debate there. By the way, did you pay your 8 dollars or whatever the current ticket price is there?
Let’s take your own chef analogy, while you are free to critique the food on the table, you can’t scream that it’s not up to the mark of the Michelin star restaurant you generally frequent and therefore let’s burn this bistro down. Round up the pitchforks, brothers and sisters we’re going to have us a bonfire tonight!! That’s silly.
No one is claiming to be cinematic gods or anything. I agree that making movies is not the end of the world. I assert that being a doctor in the service of humanity is a far nobler profession than making movies. So, your point is?
Do you honestly believe that your cinematic holy pantheon of Cronenberg, Park Chan Wook, Guillermo Del Toro, Danis Tanovic and Alexander Sokhurov only make masterpieces or that they believe that every single film they’ve made is a masterpiece. Here’s an idea; while we’re burning that bistro down, let’s round up all the chefs that don’t have your favoured Michelin stars and let’s put them in camps!! Silly, silly, silly.
Before I encourage your amusing but essentially pointless rants anyf urther let me bare my soul to you;
As I’ve said before I make movies because I enjoy making them. If they don’t measure up to your exacting standards, that’s fine; Don’t watch the next one. I’m a middle class guy with a wife and two kids and a mortgage. You’re right, I don’t have the courage to sell my house, hawk my kids and make that dream film and go up in flames as 200 people in New York clap. I just don’t have the guts for that. I prefer to work within the system and push the boundaries in whatever way I can. That’s what works for me and I’m sorry if I embarrass you when Kim and Fernando down the hall quotes their Cinematic lineage and you shamefacedly have no contemporary Indian heroes to lay claim on.
You’re right when you say excuses don’t cut it. We always have excuse, budgets, censors, the system, whatever. None of those cut it but you know what, at least we try and that’s a lot more useful than making silly tirades against the lack of quality cinema coming out of India.
No cinema is created in a vacuum, Korea has been making good films since the last 5 years. Do you believe that there weren’t any able film makers before that in that country or that something changed within the system that allowed better films to be made?
We’re the first wave on the beaches of Normandy, most of us will be cut down before we get past the shingles. We do this so that people who follow can trample over our dead bodies and raise the victory flag!! (God, that brought a tear to my eye)
So go ahead, be critical, it’s important but don’t let your hormones cloud your mind. It’s not an all or nothing game. The fact that Anurag or I or someone else makes a film doesn’t prevent you from making your own cinematic masterpiece. As you said, the system and budget are just excuses, so pick up a DV cam and go shoot that film which will shine in our collective imaginations. I’ll be the first to give you a standing ovation.
And you still haven’t answered my question, we know the problems, what’s your solution?
gurpreet
do tell me ur line of work? coz i will then compare it to the best of its kind in the world and if your’s is not i’ll tell you to quit and make sure u never do it again
(in response to telling navdeep not to make films if theyr not masterpeices)
hey Navdeep..first off , let me clarify, you’re mixing up me and Gurpreet..we’re two completely different individuals. You think more than one person cannot have similar opinions..?
Secondly, no, not every film has to be a masterpiece and I havent even seen yours, so dont mix me up with someone else.
Also, most people are not erudite enough to discuss their ‘cinematic lineage’.
Now regarding the chef analogy…I did not say that the food had to be compared to a five star michelin rating, or compared to anything at all…it can be criticized for being simply inedible..on it’s own merits, and the same can be said for movies..!
There are loads of rickshawallahs and panwallahs who would say ‘Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham’ is definite ‘paisa vasool’ and that Black Friday or Manorama is a piece of shit…isn’t beauty in the eye of the beholder, which especially applies to a country like India with vast socio-economic inequalities..?
So buddy, relax, no one is burning down your house…but they sure as hell can say that it looks like shit..even if they’re not architects!!
Best of luck with the filmmaking. Anything that satisfies the creative urge within you HAS to be a good thing….
Navdeep – great response.
Can’t wait to see your movie release outside of India. I’m super-excited to see people pushing the boundaries on a variety of genres… I reviewed LOPP here on PFC – I loved it.
I really believe that you, Manish and others who are pushing the boundaries forward – making commercially successful movies with audiences across the world are the ones that will enable change for those who follow. Your Normady analogy brought a tear to my eye too ;)
Shripriya, you are right in a way…but why are they always trying to ape foreign traditions, like ‘noir’ etc? Why not develop an authentic Indian tradition? I think ‘Bandit Queen’ is a great example of that (I’m sure there are others) Or else work in the west in western situations and social compulsions….it’s sort of like trying to cross breed a watermelon with an orange….it is simply futile.
123 – I personally don’t think they are trying to ape foreign traditions. I think they are trying to make the films that talk to them, that touch them. There are limited number of genres in the world, so most films get bucketed into one of those – noir, comedy, documentary, mockumentary whatever…
And Gurpreet raised the noir comparison, so I was answering him!
But one one hand you can’t say “why are they apeing” and on the other compare them to foreign films then, can you?
Sorry to change the subject..did anyone see EASTERN PROMISES? Mainak? entertaining…one of the best fight scenes ever…weak ending…
abc/123: You have some valid points but here’s something to consider. I know of a lot of people here in India who do not know of ‘noir or whatever’ or its derivatives. So do we not attempt to adapt them to our context so that people get to know of them. Develop an authentic Indian tradition for sure but that doesn’t require us to pull down ‘foreign’ traidtions as you call them.
In fact, how do we define an “authetic Indian tradition” that holds true pan-India is itself difficult to arrive at.
So let’s have that mutant watermelon and orange cross. It might be a mostrosity but who knows we might sometime get a delightful cross-breed.
Navdeep,
I am sure someone from new wave makers is going to shine. No doubts about that.
But Gurpreet, 123 have a very valid point. We must see something original, very Indian where people work hard on story, screenplay and come up with original film. I am sure it will work. Uptil now, All so called new films have either been copy or highly inspired by western cinema. Films like RDB and Hirani’s Gandhi worked well because they were very close to original and had rooted indianness. Offcourse 90% of crap like partner also works but then when we are talking about changing INdian cinema, we have to churn original stuff.
I was listeneing to title track of Johny Gaddar and it reminded so much of any of Tarantino’s tracks (I just hope movies is not highly inspired by hollywood, though I must admit I didn’t find direct copy when I browsed through almost all of Tarantino’s film soundtracks). The other films of new era directors also seem to be highly insppired and sosmetimes direct lift work.
I hear that in hollywood, it generally takes years before a story/screenplay is developed. Even Hirani and Chopra took couple of years just to write Gandhi series and look at the result. In this very system SLB made “Khamoshi” (his best till date) and their are other examples as well. Lets hope that your next one would be a novel and successful venture.
Navdeep, Sripriya — Liked your comments. Navdeep’s one seems to just come out of his heart, which is reasonably so.
Now to Mr. 123 or abc or xyz (whatever combinations of any three keys on the keyboard)..I don’t think there is anything wrong in being influenced by foreign traditions, if they are superior in some manner why not learn from them.
after all when we are in school/college we read books written by people who have more knowledge than us in respective fields. We just don’t burn the books in order to write our own. even if we want to write our own book, we have to first learn and master the field from the work that someone else has done in the past.
Also if we don’t try to crossbreed watermelon with orange, we will not have any inventions. Would also recommend such people to go and watch Omkara, which is inspired by a book written by a foreign author.
@123
Noir is NOT a foreign tradition. Noir IS a Cinematic tradition.
And you talk of ‘authentic Indian’. Like what? A genre called Indian. Imagine our beloved World Cinema masters attempting this ‘particular genre’.
@Navdeep
Touching response Navdeep. Very true, your Normandy, our very own Normandy. Wonder where the critics in our country will be posting themselves on the Normandie..
Navdeep,Shripriya etc…. to call it ‘Six Feet Under’…!! Come on guys, give me a fuckin break! That in itself is just ….(words fail me). We all know where ‘Six Feet Under’ comes from, right?
At least have an original title, for cryin out loud!
And Navdeep, taking the chef analogy a little further…if you dont want your dish to be compared to a five star michelin restaurant…then dont name it after one! Like you did with ‘Six Feet Under’…which is DEFINITELY five star….
Thani, you’re right about that…I have to agree!
@123
six feet under is an analogy given to anyone buried, 6 feet beneath the ground
it was also a death metal band in the 80’s and a HBO series
123,
Really. Come now. ‘Six feet under’ is a common phrase.
Try http://www.phrases.org.uk
Still no answers to the questions.
gurpreets comment is a manifestation of want of utopian indian cinema which again is matter of perception. To each his own. If u are talkin about Chanwook park..then lets talk about
And from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_(number)
The number of feet below ground level a coffin is traditionally buried; thus, the phrase “six feet under” means that a person (or thing, or concept) is dead
In lieu of a liberal education even a Google search will do. Surely, you’re not too lazy to do basic research if you want to accuse the rest of the world of intellectual laziness.
123…where does the word “SFU” come from?? enlighten me.
Gurpreet, 123, etc.
I notice that you’re not quite clear on the concept of a debate.
Some of us here have been gracious enough to concede your point whenever made. However I don’t see you replying to any of the questions raised. Instead, you try and change the angle of your attack.
That works well for frat boy discussions over a keg. Unfortunately, it’s been years since I’ve gotten over sophomoric exchanges in chat rooms and I don’t really have the patience for this. If you really have a point, I’d appreciate it if you can put forward your argument in a coherent and cohesive way. I’m way open to criticism.
If you’re just procrastinating finishing your homework, then sorry; this is a waste of time.
123 is referring to an American TV show called ‘Six feet under’ which chronicles a family that runs a funeral home.
Actually he may be reffering to an american metal band called six feet under. God knws..he is coming up with alll possible argument and conversation killers. hehe
jwalant if only film institutes could produce legends we would have had millions …you dont learn anything at institutes…infact you un- learn things at any of these institutes…ftii or any of these places all they teach you is manipulation …thank god not too many people are taking that path.
@machar apoorva lakhia ..a great example of film school produced joker:D
Sorry Christina
Missed watching Eastern Promises…. Was busy in something better….
But tommorow afternoon i’ll watch it….
Navdeep, I did write you a detailed response…I dont know where the hell it got lost.
Firstly, I and Gurpreet are not the same person..so get that out of your head..
Secondly, I did not say that your house should be burnt down or whatever…..but I sure as hell can say it’s a shitty house…without being an architect..right? And a meal can be judged on it’s own merits without comparing it to anything else…just like anything else can.
Third..forget about the hormones, I’m long past that stage, Im actually sitting in an Edit bay in Burbank, trying to finish an episode of ‘Cane’ before the deadline, and we are waiting on a botched bleached bypass to be corrected, so there’s some offtime.
And lastly, no one said that anyone was embarassed of their lineage…in fact mainstream Bollywood films are quite the vogue in the U.S right now, a lot more than some so called ‘noir’ wannabe…..which I havent seen by the way, it may be tolerable for all I know.
Navdeep, I wish you all the luck with your filmmaking..it must be good if it gives you a reason to go on living.And dont worry pal, no one is coming after you with pitchforks etc..LOL
And that holy triumvirate you mentioned, they are definitely not my favourite filmmakers, quite far from it.
So, basically I dont really have an argument, you have a right to make whatever you want….call it ER,or Sex and the City or Profiler….hey if you translate it into Hindi, maybe you wont get sued..!
and Navdeep, I dont know about frat boys…but those sorority girls are definitely worth a taste….whether you’re married or not…fresh, corn fed American produce brother, straight out of Ohio…..yummy (I’m actually watching a scene with a couple of them for this episode of ‘Cane’ that I’m finishing up right now. It’s a new series, do check it out.)
If you haven’t seen the film, why are you getting your panties in a bunch?
As I mentioned before, you pays your 8-12 bucks, you makes your comments. Fair deal. No?
While cynicism is fine, bitterness is an unattractive quality. Good luck with your edit.
Navdeep, never mind about the bitterness …we all have it…you too my friend. And I’m sure you’re a nice guy, this is a continuation of something from last night and has nothing to do with your movie…it’s about the wider implications of criticism, which on this platform is heavily stifled.
God bless you, and I promise, now after this crazy dialogue, I will definitely pay 8 dollars to see your movie..and I’m sure it’s good.
God Bless….
@123
to use Navdeep’s expression – Really, come now 123. Give us a break, will you?
Correct me if i need correcting. YOU HAVEN’T SEEN ‘Manorama SFU’????
And that basically you dont really have an argument about ‘Manorama SFU’. what are we talking about then?
You say i’m right & that you “have to agree” with me on NOiR but you keep coming back with more digs at NOiR. What do we do with you????
Navdeep, Sripriya — Liked your comments. Navdeep’s one seems to just come out of his heart, which is reasonably so.
Now to Mr. 123 or abc or xyz (whatever combinations of any three keys on the keyboard)..I don’t think there is anything wrong in being influenced by foreign traditions, if they are superior in some manner why not learn from them.
after all when we are in school/college we read books written by people who have more knowledge than us in respective fields. We just don’t burn the books in order to write our own. even if we want to write our own book, we have to first learn and master the field from the work that someone else has done in the past.
Also if we don’t try to crossbreed watermelon with orange, we will not have any inventions.
this is killer..123 has not seen the movie..what are we talking about..is all null and void..lol
Hey see, we can all get along.
At the end of the day, we all want better cinema. There may be misfires and hiccups along the way but it’s silly to dismiss everything and everyone before they get a chance.
Every wave has a toe and a shoulder and a crest. Struggling with my high physics here but we’re at the toe of this one. Let it build. Hopefully, we’ll surf that big one to cinema heaven.
“we
Navdeep, I don’t think there is any need to get along with everyone. If you have done what you wanted and you are happy with the output, you don’t have to give a damn about anyone else.
Although I agree with you, that we all want good cinema, which is being plagued by repetitive cinema (just watched Dhol and it’s same as his previous works). If we are able to create something new/different/interesting by adopting something from others, that should be appreciated.
and I personally appreciate your efforts, keep the good work.
thani for me this was never about sfu, it started a while back about unfair stifling of criticism…about anurag constantly saying that you have to be a filmmaker to criticize his or anyone else’s films..! which is complete bullshit!
some guy Gurpreet came on board and seemed to make a comment about sfu, and everyone jumped on him….and I felt my sentiments were being reinforced. So basically navdeep agrees that we have a right to comment on his film…whether I personally have or have not seen his film is irrelevant..it is the larger issue that we are talking about here….I’m sure u guys understand..plz read my post to Vasan
Smoker Joe,
I agree that every little step counts and we should encourage people to move beyond current conventions.
At the same time it’s easy to get complacent and rest on your laurels (however, hard won they may be)
Personally, I appreciate criticism. It helps me stay sharp.
123,
What I disagree with is the tone and tenor of some of the nay sayers. An informed and intelligent debate is always welcome. Name calling is just juvenile and not worth anyone’s time.
123, you have not seen the film and yet you were trying very, very hard to criticize the film. Also Gurpreet, is likely to not have seen the film cos the film did not release where he resides, if has has seen the film, then he must have.. So who are the fools?
And can you give us the exact quote where anurag said….? if you are free find all those quotes, to back up your comment. If you can’t, then?
so both of you have been a fool – a complete fool who are talking shite out of their back. and we just allowed you guys to make a fool, to let the world know there are so many dipsticks like you two are out their.
you have two choice – you either write constructive comments or shit somewhere else.
Idhar itna sannata kyon hain bhai?
Honhaar..if u look at the transcript yourself…you will find the quote…by Anurag…’first make something good yourself and then crib’…or something close to that(which any rational being will disagree with)….and I think it’s a lot better to take the shit out than stroke each others dicks like you seem to be doing, Honhaar! I have been trying to be constructive time and time again, but keep getting verbally abused by the likes of you..! So if you cant practice what you preach…why waste my time? (Admin plz note this)
Honhaar, nobody here is fool, and 123 is not criticizing one particular movie, his comments are very generic most of the time. (however i still don’t agree with his points)
Navdeep, debate helps and is constructive, if it’s healthy and all the parties involved are ready to listen to and understand other person’s opinion/point of view. But if any of the party is just trying to stick to one point and isn’t flexible enough to appreciate others, then it should be avoided.
you have been a constructive?! so you have not seen the film but are calling the film shite and criticizing the director – is that being a constructive? and even name-calling.
“first make something good yourself and then crib”
now tell me, the transcript – what this discussion? he said it in this discussion where? where did he exactly say that- “first make something good yourself and then crib”? Or you just making up shit again? anyway, how does that mean “first make a film and then criticize a film”? And you said he constantly says that, so can you give me all of his quotes where he said that.
we are preaching – what are we preaching? do tell us. but do not incorporate your fantasies.
now – have you yet apologise to the author and passionforcinema.com, for being an ass, accusing everyone, name-calling, wasting OUR time, etc?
honhaar, now it’s your turn to do some digging, find me a place where I called the director or his film shit….just find it..and then come back here and waste my time.
Like Smoker says…my comments are general and specific, and not about any particular film…..it is simply about the right to criticize a commercial product…which any film at the box office is……it seems you are the ass now..isnt it…..and one more thing…I only indulge in name calling when someone does it first to me…capiche? Like u are doing now…you fuckin loser..ADMIN PLEASE NOTE
Admin Note: 123, as long as you are on this forum, please observe the decorum and DO NOT verbally attack other readers; and if you are unable to do that, please take your issues somewhere else.
and btw….I am DEFINITELY going to see sfu after all this heated discussion, I cant fuckin wait!
no 123, you still have not told me where Anurag has constantly been saying that one should criticize the film only if they have seen the film.
let’s start with your insults…
“Im so sorry you had to sell that kidney,suck dick,get butt fucked and god knows what else” (comment 72)
“it sounds to me like you never made a
“in fact mainstream Bollywood films are quite the vogue in the U.S right now”
Quite the “vogue”, eh?! God bless **== .
Btw are Gurpreet and Panini the same person?
it seems to have become a battle place for nothing it seems.
Chill Guys.
Bharat Mata ki Jai!
signing off.
@Navdeep Singh #comment no. 79
it was one of the best comment i ever read on PFC ^:)^^:)^^:)^
Navdeep, my martyr, here’s my proposed solution:
Attempt to make a film you personally love and can honestly call cutting edge, a masterpiece, etc…
And why I’m even bothering to express myself to you being someone who only spends money on movie tickets and not on financing them or making them, is because I see a glimmer of hope in you guys compared to the others.
Back to the solution:
Problems 1 to 10 in your film as well as almost all Indian cinema – The writing! It maybe because of our education system that encourages the sciences and snickers at creative writing and regional languages, including Urdu and Hindi, but we’re screwed right now, so if you can’t get Salman Rushdie or Vikram Seth to write for you, collaborate with a foreign writer on your next one.
Problems 11 – The casting. In some film mag I read some bigtime director said, casting is 50% of directing. Besides being an extremely weak actor with a squeaky voice, Abhay deol was horribly miscast – you needed someone who had a more weathered/tougher face to pull this part off. If you cast him for star value, it again makes no sense – who the hell jumps up and down screaming – “Abhay Deol’s film’s releasing, dude”? To make matters worse the movie was positioned as a “Noir” film (Whatever that means for the common man) starring the great Abhay Deol – That’s what screwed its already shaky opening. Film Noir is about “femme fatales” – the less said about that quality in the babes in your film the better – you tried to get behenjis to play bombshells… So if you can’t get the top stars then cast new people who fit the part and can act well.
Problem 12 – marketing and publicity – I liked your poster with the guy hanging upside down over a grave, but your title made no sense – “manorama – Six Feet Under’ sounds like a spoof or a parody which its not – You should have just stuck with Six Feet Under or given it another hardboiled title. No attractive tag line – I don’t even remember what it was – The tag line should have been imprinted in my brain as I’m your target audience. I saw it on the Friday of its release and I fall into the 18-25 film lover demographic. There should have been a sense of foreboding in your publicity material and implicit violence and an undercurrent of sexuality – Unfortunately for you your actresses had no sex appeal – and I don’t mean skin show, but innate sex appeal that certain actresses have even with all their clothes on.
These were the major problems with the movie and its release for me the viewer, there might have been other technical issues which I’m not trained or equipped to comment upon and I’m quite sure you’ll improve in those areas.
I apologise if I’ve offended you or anyone else – All I’m hoping for is to have a couple of DVDs of Indian cinema which I can show people from all over the world with pride as I do with my Indian music collection and Mughlai recipes.
And no I’m not Panini, 123 or anyone else -
navdeep since you’ve asked me for the solution I’ll give it to you:
The main problem for me with your film, whic is my problem with almost all Indian movies is the writing – Don’t know what the problem is maybe the education system that encourages the sciences and snickers at creative writing and regional languages, maybe something deeper – who knows, but it looks like you filmmakers are screwed when it comes to your writers – so unless you can hire Salman Rushdie or Vikram Seth maybe you should look to collaborate with a foreign writer who’s done some good work that you like.
The other problem for me was your casting and the acting. I read some famous filmaker’s quote in some magazine some time back where he said “casting is 50% of directing” – I thought Abhay Deol was horribly miscast – you needed someone with a tougher, more mature weathered face, and of course better acting skills, not a baby faced squeaky voiced actor. And if you cast him because of star value, that’s even more perplexing as who the hell jumps up and down screaming – Abhay’s film’s releasing this week except for his family? I think that had to do a lot with the dismal opening too. As far as your Noir femme fatales were concerned the less said the better – you had behenjis playing babes. Noir is about tough guys and femme fatales, and you had neither.
The marketing and the publicity – this was the other thing according to me that did you in. The title – buddy – “Manorama – Six Feet Under” sounds like a spoof or a parody which its not, you should have stuck with six foot under or some other hard boiled title. I can’t remember your tagline, which should have left an imprint on me – I mean I’m your target audience – falling in the 18-26 demographic and I saw your film on Friday. Your poster was interesting with the guy hanging upside down but it should have had an undercurrent of sexuality as well a la paperback covers. There should have been more forboding violence and sexuality in your promos, but I understand you were handicapped by your actresses – And I don’t mean skin, but some kind of sex appeal that some actresses seem to have even when fully clothed.
There may have been other technical problems which I’m not trained or equipped to comment upon, but the reason I’m writing this shit out here is because I actually have high hopes when it comes to the younger gen of Indian filmmakers. All I want is to be able to have a few DVDs of Indian films to show people I meet from all over the world with pride the way I do with my Indian music collection and Mughai recipes.
I apologise if I’ve offended you or anyone else here. And no I’m not Panini, 123 or anyone else, just a mamooli flight attendant.
“Noir is NOT a foreign tradition. Noir IS a Cinematic tradition.”
Very moot point. You can be from China or Chittagong and still do noir. Its simply a cinematic genre, open to all. It’s how you ‘root’ your film which makes it ‘Indian’ or otherwise. And I agree with whoever mentioned Johnny Gaddar and Tarantino – seems to be much more of a western homage hangover there than in Manorma.
i really got sucked up in this heated debate about “I want to see that” and “I want to make that” with due respect to all the ignited and enlighted souls hovering around over here i have few points if you guys still have some pataince left there.
1. 123, gurpreet and others i loved your original idea, freedom of critism and your choice of tearing anything apart. may i kindly ask you that who the hell you are to expect a film-maker to always touch higher ground or be ready to be shunned.
especially if “He” happened to be from India which suddenly is expected to rewrite history in Cinema and olympics.
you know what i like about many of those hollywood movies is when a cop read out the rights. you see it does not happen over here (or may be over the dead body) but lets read out the rights over here.
1. you have every right to watch “authentic shit, white-shit, colored shit, “porn”(we know where the industry is) 90% brain-dead movies produced by hollywood studio’s and simeltenoulsy cheer them winning many medals at olymics as well,
you have right to crtisize(even without watching it) you have right to educate “navdeep” and other such indian upcoming directors to aspire to be the best not co-inciding with your own novel existence and rich taste for anything flavored.
lets say I am an upcoming director(another deserving candidate for your profusly educated thoughts) let me also read out my rights.
1. I have every right to make money, caring two hoots about what “mastarbuted intelligencia” thinks about it. I have every right to take small but precious steps towards where my heart want to go because i know its not going to be as instant as “mastarbuted intelligencia” i have every right to think first about survival and then think about olympics.
i have every right to back slap and enourage my other collegues who I know, didn’t have much priveledge of such “incestous encouragement”. the reason i will continue to do so is because while we all aspire to touch those heights and standads set by those legends but it still take some courage to alter from the greener pasture and take that small but and even failing in the process being vulnerable to box-office and educated opinions.
I have one thing to say and to agree with “them” is when you break the mould go the whole hog but then again easier Said then done. whats important is to have some reserves left.