Modi v/s Modi
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Modi v/s Modi
As we ascend the ladder, viciousness wears a thicker mask
Excerpts from my travails – while travelling through Gujarat during Phase I of an over-heated election. This is not an “art” piece, but it has all the “drama” of a Greek Tragedy!
Imagine a town of dust, dispensaries and dharma where locals are sceptical about outsiders who enter their town in big cars, in search for their souls. Imagine a town, where there is a discussion if big monies will trickle down? Or if the outsiders are too busy communing with “the gods”; to have time for the inhabitants of Dharampur. Where officialdom says, property prices have shot up, since land has being purchased to build many more ashrams. Imagine a town where the statue of Gujarati poet, Narmadh is almost evicted; so as to accommodate the statue of the founder of Shripad Raj Chandra Ashram. Imagine this to be an important election issue.
I’m offered locally produced, masala soda, and told Narmadh who brought modernity as well as romanticism to poetry by introducing new poetics has been reinstated in front of the town museum and planetarium. The museum and library, the local historian informs me, was set up by Raja of Dharampur, a gifted musician, who took a great interest in Indian and western classical music. Someone announces Narendrabhai has arrived. I think, its the local modi.
At the Palace Grounds, the Chief Minister of Gujarat has arrived in his cavalcade. In his Paresh Rawal baritone, he talks about development, below poverty line, and land distribution for Adivasis.
He thunders, he performs. It is paisa vasool.
I’m asked, if there’s anyone better than Narendrabhai in speechifying. I say, he is on par to Karunanidhi, Thackeray, Laloo Prasad Yadav in terms of grandeur and panache of political rhetoric. But where the others score over Modi is, humility. They try to please their voters. Karunanidhi pleads, Thackeray prostates, Laloo humours – whereas Modi believes he is the greatest and the best.
To die is poignantly bitter, but the idea of having to die without having lived is unbearable
In the past decade, Dharampur (and much of South Gujarat) has flipped and flopped between BJP and Congress – at times – voting generously for Janata Party and even BSP. However, the important statistic is, in 2002 and 2004, Dharampur voted Congress. In 2002, BJP polled its lowest: 29.96%.
I’ve a chat with the local barber. He speaks about his days of glory. He owned three shops, and a battalion of workers. He served the best biryanis and firnis. He constructs a myth about the good old days when he was consulted and revered. Then one day, he got tired. He advises me, greed is a bottomless pit which exhausts the person. Greed is a non-stop effort to satisfy the need without ever reaching satisfaction. So he gave up. Just like that.
I ask the others about him. No one remembers the shops nor the biryanis nor the mythology. I enquire, if the barber was a riot victim. I’m greeted by mirth. I’m told, no, the Muslims in this part are too scattered for them to butcher us. It would have been too much of effort.
Then I ask them about their vote preference? They say in unison, the local BJP candidate, because he is a friend. Plus he processed documents with the Nagarpallika.
If I am what I have and if I lose what I have who then am I?
The cavalcade is moving to Mota Ponda, in between Dharampur and Vapi. The BJP bandwagon follow the leader. In our jeep, the Modi sympathiser points to the superb condition of the state highway; and the field with sugarcane (the best crops in years, this time), and the smiles. Why then, is the battle entirely Modi centric, I ask? Living, as we do, in a more egalitarian society, shouldn’t we focus on a collective ethos rather than heroically flawed individuals?
I’m told above the din, the BJP leadership is in doldrums, and only Modi is in the ascendant. Why, I ask? One of them quips because the punters bet on him. Big bets and jhugaad, in the end, is what it is all about. Modi draws the punters for all sorts of reasons: the personality, the charisma, the magnetism (some call it oomph and sex appeal).
We are eight thousand. Modi extols the audience to swear by the name of god. The response is muted. Modi’s magic is not working. The black cats on stage, twiddle their thumb.
There are many Adivasis from Dangs among the audience. There is talk of a state-level agitation – to protest against harassment by forest and police officials. They want to press for the early passage of the proposed Central bill recognising their rights over forestlands.
Modi’s scowls. He is worried.
Sonia Gandhi’s show was good. L K Advani’s rally in nearby Valsad was a flop.
In the nineteenth century the problem was that God is dead. In the twentieth century the problem is that man is dead. In the twenty first century, the booze is dead.
Valsad is the land of Morarji Desai. It has burgeoning trade; Neera Kendras, locals malls and a public toilet which is nicknamed Pakistan. Our car is halted by the local police. We are asked if we are transporting liquor.
Booze is omnipresent during an election. The game plan is simple: Make the rival voters drunk; so that they can’t vote.
Liquor is imported from Daman or plied from Deevdanda. This is a non-decrepit fishing village. Electricity is in a constant state of flux. School children do not know the name of their omnipresent CM. The big problem is, the sea is encroaching. A temporary barricade was built but parts of the village were flooded with sea water. The situation is grim.
A year ago, I had met a local from this village on an Etihad flight. He is a poor man who did menial jobs for the Emirates coast guard. His Air India flight was cancelled. He told me, his ancestors had sneaked into the hull of a ship – and into the Gulf. That is no longer, possible with international laws. Now, one needs a work permit. Otherwise his entire family would have migrated to the Emirates. The Arabs are serious. They create islands on the sea. In Jordan, they plan to shift the sea from the East to the West. But in Deevdanda, nothing has changed. There is zero development.
He is returning home after a decade. Its his daughter’s marriage. His future son in law earns Rs 2500 per month. He says that’s as much as a migrant sugarcane cutter in Gujarat. Is it enough, he asks me, for two grown ups who plan to start a family? In Surat, one of the most expensive cities in the country?
Things have to change, he adds. These days, everyone talks about the sookhi; no one talks about the dookhi! Development has to be for everyone. Or else, Gujarat will become like the Emirates, a land for Oil Sheikhs and no one else.
Why should society feel responsible only for the education of children, and not for the education of all adults of every age?
The question pops ups – Gujarat and Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi. Modi, who is armed with a Political Science degree, inexplicably, refers to Mohandas as Mohanlal in his public rallies.
I witness Mahatma Magic during an open air show of MAHADEVBHAI for thousands of Adivasis and locals in Olpad (near Surat). It was a show on a makeshift stage, basic lights and sound. None of it mattered. The audience, repeated, each and every line. At times, they stood up and argued with the actor. And once the play was over, they debated the pros-cons of the show till sunrise. So, Gandhi is raging!
Of course, you can argue Olpad is Gandhi territory. It is a few kilometres from Vedchi, where Narayan Desai, son of Mahadev Desai (Gandhiji’s secretary from 1919-42) oversees an ashram, a school, a workshop for artisans. The indefatigable Narayanbhai has been doing a road show which he calls Gandhi Katha. The turn-out in interiors of Gujarat has been encouraging. The Vedchi ashram is powered by solar energy. School children enter in the morning, and leave their dabbas in the solar container. By lunch break, they can have piping, hot food. Post Godhra, Muslim artisans were relocated in the workshop. Funds were raised for rehabilitation. Field reports were filed and submitted to the courts.
This is the Gandhian method. Outsiders say, Gandhians are loveable but naive and totally impractical in today’s Gujarat.
A local Gandhian says, the Congress had a better chance in 2002 than now. In fact with a better choice of candidates, the Congress could have won 40-45 of the closely fought seats. But the Congress was scared. It gave Modi a walk-over. The Gandhian knows what she is talking about, since for the first time since Emergency, everyone (Gandhians, Socialists, Sarvodayawallahs, Leftists, etc) had campaigned against Modi in 2002.
Five years later, I meet her in a Memo train. So what’s the prediction? She says, quite straightforward. Its Modi v/s Modi. Either Modi will win. Or Modi will lose.
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Satish Kasetty
nice read sir ….
there is a sense of sorrow and puty with which the article has been written.
“but it has all the
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finally…hav been missing the murmurings for so long. Where have u been saar ? but never miss the HT one anyway. As always, great read and this time it has the visual elements too. cud c everything. So,its again Modi vs modi ? and i m still wondering about the 5W’s and 1 H. But then he is not the only one.
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hi ramu,
Wow lovely post, got an insight in whats happening in gujrat first hand through your post. By the way, waht do you think about the not so latest issue ‘The Ram Setu’ issue??? No marks for me for guessing, but i see a script taking shape, as politicians will exloit it, make people fight over it, gain political mileage over it, TV channels too will hype it up, Anand Patwardhan will probably end up making another award winning documentary on it and eventually there will be a film made on it, probably called ‘Ram Setu’ I have been observing a lot of hoardings asking people to support the cause to save the so called bridge… but trust me this is one film i hope that never gets made… too much is at stake and especially looking at the way we are going, it scares me all the more… Ram Bachaye!!!
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very interesting article….one question that arises to my mind is about the psyche of the people in Gujarat…is it only fear that is giving Modi the wind in his sails or is it solid support…it it is support then that is a very worrying sign…
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Dear All,
Modi is a born good leader. Gujarat has never seen such a good CM in the history. Believe me, you guys have very wrong impression about Modi.
Watch this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3UUU4ZQhDk&mode=related&search=
The people of Gujarat are in solid support.
Gujarat has faced riots while Congress was ruling in 70s and also Mumbai has faced too in 93 under congress ruling.
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Hi Kuldip,
That doessn’t justify what happened in Gujarat Post Godhra… there’s way bigger conspiracy that probably we people are not even able to visualize or foresee that these politicians are at. By this I do not say that congress is any better.
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Is this PFC? Or some other dumb mind numbing news channel – constantly indulging in psudo scularism or biased communal critique? Plz no more modi thrashing or favoring…
Let those pple living in jamalpur, kalupur, dariyapur, jambu, mandvi, panigate,chhani,salatwada,ranika and many many more across gujarat decide who should be the CM of Gujarat…
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Ramu
yeh dil mange more.
Thanks for this article. Please write more regularly about political issues.
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I wonder these r just ur genuine opinion or u r afraid of accepting the truth of Modi in a muslim dominated film industry where calling a spade a spade would be hazardous…
If u have courage post similar ‘intellectual’ article about the reality of Islamic extremism, may be on how Muslim League is still winning in your own state, i.e Kerala or how Sania Mirza has to apologize on shooting outside a mosque….
I am sure all you wud have to offer on this is Silence….because we all know wat happened to Theo van Gog…..
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those fu^*g channels cnnibn/ndtv etc make a living out of bashing modi and pretend to be secular .. if they bash muslim radicals, its anchors wudve been murdered long back. obviously slain ppl cant make any noise . thats ‘peace’ for u.
saddam hussain is hanged by America .. fu$%g loonies create a riot in Bangalore .. kashmiri hindus and sikhs killed and driven out (and before that frm pakistan) .. hmm deja vu . our PM cant sleep becoz he feels for the mother of indian terrorist who rammed his explosive laden car into glasgow airport and died .. ofcourse 300 ppl die in train blast in india – no problem .. its part of life ! read an article by Tarleen Kaur . she said while inspecting the site of train blast, our PMs face was as cheerful as if he was taking a morning garden walk.
tasleema nsreen had her book banned in ’secular’ india coz she wrote abt bangladeshis harassing the hindus over THERE. the leaders of a political party who attacked her in hyderabad proudly proclaim ‘we are muslims first , indians later’. ofcourse sardesaiji and cronies completely missed this.
ethnic indians harassed and discriminated in malaysia, indonesia , ancient temples demolished in scores .. no big deal ! the PM even refuses to meet the their leader who asks india for help . wow .. i love this secularism !
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Thank you – ALL OF YOU – for comments.
One solitary article on Gujarat will NOT alter the ground reality, BUT it enables us to ask tough questions about a multi religious society such as ours.
As Kabira (a julaha-weaver) said:
Baahman se gadha bhala
Aan jaat se kutta
Mullah se murga bhala
Raat jagvai sutta
And for these utterances, they martyred Kabira as a kafir, a low caste renegade, a securalist.
Having a sensible discussion about Gujarat, is well neigh impossible. The atmosphere is over heated and tense. During these elections, there was “bhay” (fear) in Gujarat. It was palpable. Non Modi voters refuse to articulate their choice in public. Usually, these were poor disenfranchised people. Adivasis, Kolis, peasants, workers, women, weavers. AND most of these people are the ones who did NOT vote in Jamalpur, Kalupur, Dariyapur, Jambu, Mandvi, Panigate, Chhani, Salatwada, Ranika.
The other thing is: Gujarat has been polarised. On the rare occasion, when there is a Hindu-Muslim alliance, its because a Dawoodi Bohra trader has a “strategic” partnership with a Mehta or a Shah in order to prevent his shop or gala being burned in the next round of riots.
Looming large is the visage of the CM. Modi is self-obsessed. When I attended Modi’s rallies, I noticed, he utters his own name. Once, every 45 seconds to 65 seconds. Like Colonel Gaddafi, dictator of Libya, he is inflicted by the Gaddafi Syndrome. For Modi, the Party does not matter, nor the Program, nor the Ideology. Coz Modi is the Supreme Commander & CEO.
The point is, in a Parliamentary Democracy, the leader cannot be larger than life. If that happens, he will become General Miah Musharaf. And like General Miah Musharaf – he will begin to believe he is the ONLY saviour, who can guarantee security or prosperity of his people. For the Gaddafis and Musharafs of the world – the Constitution, a free media and independent cinema and documentaries and art — ARE hurdles, obstacles, impediments. Therefore they are meant to be subverted, throttled, banned.
Such a behaviour undermines democracy. This was evident in Pakistan; in Libya; and during the Emergency in our country when India became Indira and Indira became India.
The lesson from Emergency was: we cannot compromise our democratic ethos; and that is NOT possible till we find an ethical balance between individual freedom on the one hand, and, our collective identity, on the other (as the “banned” film-makers on PFC will testify!).
We need to be able to question our political leadership? Mr Modi has been elected by the people. He is a servant of the people. It’s our Constitutional Right to question his functioning and utterances.
Even if they are uncomfortable questions!
For e.g. Modi’s Followers speak of a well-governed state, they underline development. But progress for whom – and at what cost? Today, Gujarat is the 17th state among 18 large states in terms of statutory expenditure in the social sector. But as any two-bit economist will testify, the way to finance Government expenditure is through better tax administration and better tax collection; and NOT road shows and full page ads in newspapers.
Due to the high borrowings by Modi, the state has a debt burden of Rs 94,000 crore. It was was Rs 45,301 crore in 2001-02. Gujarat has borrowed beyond its capacity. Of this, crores of tax payer’s money is spent to ensure that The Ruler’s face is plastered on ST buses, school books + bags, bill boards, masks.
Like Gaddafi and Musharaf, the Modi – THE RULER – is everywhere.
Modi’s generation will not be affected but it will affect future generations of the state. In the long run, these borrowings will damage Gujarat’s interests.
PRASHANT SIR: I’m NOT part of the Hindi film industry. In fact I’m not a writer, director, actor, spot boy. Nothing. I’ve no patrons in the film fraternity. Hindu nor Muslim nor Bahai. But my paowallah and andhawallah and taxiwallah and poet friend and students and the waiter who served me falooda are Muslims. But why should that ghettoise my thought process?
In Kerala, the Muslim League is in ascendancy ALONG WITH the RSS and VHP. Extreme passions and prejudices are fanned by fanatics on both side.
Also, I’m from Kerala. But because of a complicated lineage (which we can discuss over a cutting chai – whenver you’ve the time), I’m also from Partitioned Punjab. Born in Kolkotta. Raised in Bihar. Studied in Maharashtra. Worked + travelled in Gujarat and Uttar Pradesh and Uttranchal. The one thing, I’ve noticed is: HATE cannot be countered with HATE!
Jati na pooch Sadh ki
Pooch lijiye gyaan
Mol karo talwaar ki
Pada rahan do myaan
FINALLY FIMBHAI: The questions you raise points me to The Indian Constitution, a vastly under-rated document, which was drafted by that giant among men, Dr Ambedkar. The Principle of the Constitution is based on the Right of the Individual, AND not on collective rights.
As our Nation State is passing through a perilous phase – these Constitutional Rights (especially for minority groups like Dalits, Women, Muslims), have collided with the right of the majority, and produced caste and communal violence. This is the main cause of Communalism in India. The Congress & BJP (among others), are aware of this contradiction – and have chosen to pursue a divisive, sectarian, narrow, partisan and communal agenda.
Dr Ambedkar in his book
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Ramu sir…good to c u here again and as mainak said…yeh dil maange more…much more. why should the murmurings be limited to prithvi cafe (oh..now with new look n all) n HT!!
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Hats Off!!! Brilliant!
- Phoenixnu, Ramu sir already owes oz 3 Rice plates and is trying to find a way out
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beautiful…!!
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good essay there Ramu sir .. i can tell u are a noble soul ..
but one thing i’l tell u is that Look Around at the muslim majority nations on this earth .. there is NO concept of secularism .. they enjoy it till they are a minority and then impose harsh islamic laws on the country as soon as they become the majority. u may wonder what happens to the liberal muslims .. well they get drowned out completely. Indonesia , Malaysia , Pakistan (chased away other faiths on its creation) , Bangladesh , not to mention the Arab states are shining(?) examles .. coz they are downright bigots in their approach (one cant practice any other religion in the whole of saudi arabia except ofcourse islam .. not even INSIDE ur home if im right). thats called extreme intolerance and totalianariasm. the ONLY secular muslim country is Turkey .. and that is becoz its erstwhile ruler (Kemal Attaturk) deislamised it completely by passing laws.
And not just Kabir .. even our respected Abdul Kalam got labelled as ‘Kafir’ for his secular tendencies.
Did u take note of that point i made abt attack on Tasleema .. they were [underline]Leaders[/underline] of a muslim political party .. and they openly profess that they bear allegiance to ISlam, not India. Coming frm the mouth of leaders u can ascertain where our democracy is headed. And surprise surprise .. not even one of those vociferous self-righteous monkeys in the media raised any objection. And no surprise at all: congress, in keeping ith its tradition of muslim appeasement at all costs, stays mum.
why do u think Film culture died down in pakistan when they seem to be culturally identical to us .. its becoz islam discourages all forms of art .. its only when musharraf came that he started promoting music and films there coz he knws its importance in a society. dude u criticize musharraf .. w/out him pakistan wudve been history.
uve raised a few negative points abt modis rule .. i lived in gujarat for 4 years .. i havent seen a smoother running state .. good electricity supply, good roads, low crime rate, firm anti terror approach, high development.
we idolize Gandhi who taught us to surrender and not raise our fists .. i disagree .. when its a question of ur survival, u gotta stand firm .. or else ur civilization ends up in a museum .
i aint half religious myself .. but i can see with the eyes of a human being whats wrong/evil . and i dont care if my opinion is politically correct or not.
problem is we dont learn from the past .
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Dear Ramu,
I dont find fault with your intentions but the problem is hindu fanaticsm is largely reactionary, part
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@Ramuji
some thought provoking stuff there. very interesting article indeed. I have never been to Gujrat but whatever I have heard/seen of the state and its ‘leader’, Modi does come off as another Musharraf.
“HATE cannot be countered with HATE!” totally agree.
Somebody here said he is a very good leader, I am not in a position (due to lack of knowledge) to question that but more often than not people tend to associate extremism and fiery personality with good leadership. It need not be necessarily so.
@Filmibhai
I do agree that secularism should not be one-sided or more precisely not only about hindu-bashing.
A couple of objections though:
“islam discourages all forms of art .. ” I disagree. Wasn’t it during the Mughal period that we constructed beautiful buildings and had some of the best artists in music?
They discourage the western influence, but that’s a different issue altogether (and a complicated one for it involves questions of freedom etc.)
And Gandhi taught us to surrender? where did you get that idea from? Its either a wrong choice of word or you really don’t know what he said because that is exactly what he asked us not to do! He asked us to stand firm.
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‘I disagree. Wasn
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‘And Gandhi taught us to surrender? where did you get that idea from? Its either a wrong choice of word or you really don
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^^ i dont know how this smiley appeared there
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Is it ball-less Mother India or ball-less Father India?
What type of ball-less-ness are we talking here?
For a ball-less nation India has’t done a bad job at fucking around once in a while.
O yes…but most of our fucking tends to be “largely reactionary”
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Wish filmbhai was a little better informed about history. He needs to understand the tensions generated within the Islamic thought by various exegetical strands and the Sufi silsilas were part of a larger political drive to mould the destiny of human kind – a tension between those who impose an agenda and those who resist it. Aurangzeb indeed frowned upon all forms of creative self-expression since, unlike his elder brother Dara Shikoh, he followed the Naqshabandi order of Sufism. Dara Shikoh, on the other hand, was into the Qadriya mode of Sufism and openly encouraged cross-cultural dialogues and celebration. Even Aurangzeb, as he realized he was nearing death, went into a self-critical mode and eventually died a highly disillusioned man. The comparison between Zia-ul-Haq and the Moghul emperors is, therefore, invalid.
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Mini i dont understand why u r giving me a history lesson .. when more or less u r agreeing with what i said.
i dont knw if Aurangzeb followed some form of sufism or not . As far as i know he was rigidly and purely islamic in his approach. his brother Dara Shikoh on the other hand was a complete opposite. He took great interest in Indian spirituality (sanatan dharm) . he translated Upanishads into Farsi language. Aurangzeb didnt like this at all . He executed his brother.
‘The comparison between Zia-ul-Haq and the Moghul emperors is, therefore, invalid.’
why is it invalid .. two radical emperors (aurangzeb and zia-ul-haq) , tho belonging to different eras , exhibited the same traits in their rule.
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i read somewhere that indian people operate on basis of moral relativism…and this is more true for indian elite…
..in this election…though the results will be out tomorrow…all the educated n elite people of gujrat as the exit poll shows support modi…they weigh his development ideals more heavily than his communal,mass-murderer credentials….the only ressistance to modi comes from the pockets of gujrat where development has not trickled in…and hence anti-modi factor..(note: this has nothing to do with their antagonism to modi’s visceral muslim hatred)…
….makes me raise few points in particular..
1. if ppl of gujrat knowing fully well..how he is a mass-murderer…chose his development ethic over his communal undertones…does it not emphasize about moral relativism of hindu elite…who is not affected by lofty exhortations of media against modi..(and ironically is target of media…of course poor dont watch parzania n read tehelka)
2. is gujrat a special case…or people in every state would chose development( as it should be n as has happened in gujrat) over communal trappings…
3. why the so called secular parties..dont hv guts to fight an election on development issue..n why do they lose if at all they fight it..(e.g. digvijay singh in m.p.)
4. it appears in this election that only poor hv stood for secularism..( which i would like to believe is anti-incumbency in fact)…would they hv voted similarly against modi had adequate development percolated to them..?
5. if you leave aside modi’s communal agenda…you would see that modi has not only developed gujrat but empowered its people..but the question is..is empowerment a dominating factor over caste n religious identity n secular credentials…at least the middle class of gujrat and to which media appeals think so..
…lastly that brings us to the moot point is it justice over peace or peace over justice…?
p.s…i hate modi..he appears to me as a self-obsessed creature who can turn fascist at anytime…even bjp n rss hate him for his individualistic streak…but he has channelled his manic energy to empower gujaratis…
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‘i read somewhere that indian people operate on basis of moral relativism
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:(am i really reading what i really want to read…
movies,metaphysics,mathematics and now what politics..
this is going somewhere and who really cares to know where its going..sometings should be let loose and allowed to wander about a bit!!that is i suppose is the moment when someone gets it1!!
there are some nice points you have put across on which i would like to comment on..
firstly modis objectives..you have caught the chicken by its neck and i will like to help you a little bit in loosening your stronghold..
development and modernisation is important but not on the cost of life of poor people..one good example that i can cite is that of the grameen bank which was the brainchild of muhammad yunus..
what i suppose is the biggest problem withthe gujarat government is their inability to resolve a simple question..
why make the rich even more richer..?
rich can find different ways of getting richer..so what they should be doing is provide ways to the poor to grow..
modis has been a centrist and his main aim has been to erradicate the lower middle class and thepoor in ways he would prefer to be!!
now then we should take in consideration the ideologies ofthe secular parties!!
the problem withsecular parties is this that they prefer to hold the complete powers only to themselves…and not share and redistribute them among the powerful!!see if you provide the powerful with more powers then you would also remain powerful..
modi has come to know about this fact and no-matter what he does he would keep on exorcisisng poor souls because he is confident ofthe support of the class for which he has being doing loads and loads of work..
rememeber:-power corrupts but absolute power corrupt absolutely..
lastly i would very much like to say that..no-matter what..
their are always two ways of doing this out of the several ways and the option that the modi government has chosen is very short-lived and will please souls only temporarily!!
the other way is a difficult and an effective way..i.e to somehow bring the poor and the lower middle class on their own feet of existence!!
though these are just analysis..isnt it!!
what do we really know whats cooking inside?
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and though our love for the country can never be questioned..
if somebody dares questions us he would be bombarded with simple words..
how patriotic are we?
scrolling down this page…i could see a box asking for some donation..thats okay..infact very good…
but why in dollars….
ask in rupees…or paise..not dollars…
this is what americanisation can do!!
tear you apart of your own countries identity..
talking about politics would not make someone patriotic but thinking about your own country makes one patriotic!!
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somebody has to start it but in our country the biggest hurdle that is always left to be crossed over is..
who is going to start it?
no one is sure of the agenda one tries to potray..
conflicts everywhere..
the rss having a conflict with the congress..
the cpim having a conflict with trinamul and the bjpp agenda..
so many different languages…but even then most of them stick to the same old language given to us by the britishers!!english..huh..
slaves then of britishers and slaves still of americans..
come on!!lets be typical indians…if not in language..then at least in thoughts…
lets think like an indian!!no matter what happens..
its being too patriotic i suppose but still i would always love tyo be patriotic..
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i also thought the same , but i think internet transaction is dollar based only .. :((
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‘lets be typical indians
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:d :d :d :d :d Good one Ramu… Thanks for the reply… looking forward for more posts from you boss…
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On second thought, I think people like you should be ruling our country… think about it… lol
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Does anyone know about what happened to 3400 crores that were allocated by the gujarat govt (as mentioned in their web site) for the earth quake victims in 2001 ? I would like to know how that money was spent as no one (not even the media) got any time to investigate that as the riots took all the attention.
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u havent investigated and yet u r almost accusing the govt in ur tone .. typical :d
ps any plans to make Kashmir-zania ??
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Ramu
Its Modi again……117 as of now,
Pls explain how this is happening?
and Sagarika is confusing me so much.
So is this what Gujarat wants?
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nADIR
I been reading your comments everywhere. Find it very interesting.
Who are you? [Its not a metaphysical/philosophical question]
BTW Dollar is no longer cool. Its falling big time. There’s a new name for NY in Europe. They call it the Giant Discount Mall. EURO is the new cool.
Even JayZ in his new music video walks around with Euro, not dollars. Even Pop Culture has understood the new Currency.
I find this Gujrat Elections one of the most fascinating Elections ever.
I have noticed, no one has ever done anything for the poor except for few like Yunus. The smart Leaders who take over the State start with the Cities & they become the symbol of development. Chandrababu is the best example. This pisses the poor a lot. They get jealous & exercise their power. So the Congress comes back to power & even the cities are neglected.
Is it possible to have really good CMs? Karnataka’s Congress CM also turned into dust. He seemed good at his job.
We have a highly Intelligent Prime Minister ruling our country. But he is handing our country in a platter to the Americans. Not to mention he feels completely powerless. Thank god for the Communists. This is the 1st time their actions have done something good, from as far as I can remember in my life.
I have to admit, I’m very worried about Pakistan. Masharraf is the last hope for humanity. The fanatics will rip apart Nawaz & Bhutto. I hope I’m wrong. Pakistan is a very important country. Even more so than IRAN right now.
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Modi has won hands down.
Amdavad must be a Carnival tonight.
So Gujratis have chosen Highways, Non Stop Electricity & Dams built on the blood of muslims.
I hope & pray that Modi will leave the muslims in peace & really transform rural Gujrat. Otherwise there will be hell to pay for the whole country.
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Very interesting article on the Elections
http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/23bhatt.htm
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M
am watching it live:
sayan.freehostia.com
thanx
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Thanks K3
I was gonna ask you a link for it. I remember being in India now. I remember being glued in front of TV when Vinod Dua & Pronoy Roy would do their Election marathon on DD.
I grew up in Amdavad.
I went & did bogus voting at the age of 16 in the local Elections.
Never missed an Election since I turned 18.
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Mainak,
When was the last time you visited Ahmedabad or any part of Gujarat?
Narendra Modi won because he has got back up of wealthy NRIs and Reliance, he improved/developed Gujarat. If Congress had been charge of Gujarat, then right now, the state would have been a hot-bed for Kashmiri militants to hire/kidnap Gujaratis. And the state would have been so corrupt and far backwards. Well, I have heard many Gujarati’s say that. No?
Link
Anyway,…
Rahul Dholakia,
Link
‘Sides, wealthy NRIs would have heavily invested money in the area that was affected… specially Kutch.
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Pehle Dhanda….Phir Dharma
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main36.asp?filename=Ne291207fascism.asp
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Its been 10 Years HG since I last visited Amdavad.
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@Mainak..
I think ur utterly disgusting person. You dont have any write to pass sweeping statement like ”on the blodd of Muslims”…Are Gujaratis predators.
Gujarat was a developed state before 2002 and will always remain so. What happened in 2002 was unfortunate…but similar or worse riots happened in congress rule all over country, but no pseudo-secularists likes to remember them but for all the corrective actions, 2002 riots still remains a hot favour amongst all pseudo-secularists.. BUT WHY??? Beacause if any Tom, Dick or Harry has to prove its secularism just go on and bash BJP mindlessly.
Congress has ruled our country for 54 years..but yet muslims are at the lowest level of development..who is responsible ??? BJP or Narendra Modi…
Please write contructive, whether criticism or applause.
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The much touted 9% growth rate of the Indian economy has to be logically based on national and international loot. The whole myth of of a surging Gujarat, for instance, is a pure chimera and I am not surprised that a bulk of Gujarati electorate has spoken “Hum Sab Modi” adorning viciously standardized masks. The bubble will hopefully burst in a few years when ecological disasters will start visiting us without a warning and grossly and excruciatingly overstay their welcome.
BJP professes a culture of aggression rooted in a pogrommatic unconscious. Modi is the extreme face of these chaps with hideous khaki haff pants, white shirts and a black cap (wonder how they have survived without a Rohit Bal in these times of crass globalisaton!) – in short, the vigilante ironshirts!
Congress on the other hand lacks all conviction – a party as cold as its Prime Minister. Not a heart beats for its cold governance and not a tear would be shed for the losses it has suffered in Gujarat and those it is going to in Himachal.
All this makes the national political scenario pretty grim.
I wonder why the PCF never looks at questions related to the politics of depredations of various kinds. It is not enough to continuously scoff at KJo and the Chopras. It is important to aslo crically review our own relations of production. The politics of multiplexes being but one of them. What is this thing called a multiplex – architecturally, politically, socially and economically. Why does a particular brand of cinema feels so euphoric about the renewed possibilities of its existence merely because the multiplex is its avowed template? Why does it not ever feel troubled by its unquestioning relationship with the ideology of the multiplex?
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‘Why does a particular brand of cinema feels so euphoric about the renewed possibilities of its existence merely because the multiplex is its avowed template? Why does it not ever feel troubled by its unquestioning relationship with the ideology of the multiplex?’
o.O
thoda saral bhasha mein likhiye kripaya
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Mainak
‘So Gujratis have chosen Highways, Non Stop Electricity & Dams built on the blood of muslims.’
u r good at dramatic writing .. try films definitely.
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@prashant
this joke is getting irritating…..
every time someone talks intelligent, name him pseudo intellectual. everytime someone talks of equality name him pseudo secular. please yaar..
u know, agreed with all your points but buddy, u still did not get our pt. of view on this matter….
the punishment for 1 murder or 100 murders remains the same. the biggest problem is that since it did not happen to us personally, we least care about the past. if not for the development, narendra modi would have been a political outcast by now. all this harping on development plank is the only thing modi could have done to sustain himself in politics. haven’t u read anything about fascism? hitler and stalin used the development plank to push their sinister motives down on the society. can u tell me, all said and done, could u forgive the man if ur own kin were killed for no fault of theirs in an act of state sponsored killings?
what modi has done is to give a human name and face to the common man’s miseries, making them believe that he is the real enemy and only modi’s victory means the defeat the enemy.
unfortunately, the whole idea of fascism revolves around giving tangible benefits to people(electricity, roads etc.) and altering the intangible fabric of the community(peace, religion etc) according to their own ideologies.
he has been literally pushing his cult of personality down people’s throats (mao zeodong, stalin, big brother anyone?). modi has become a symbol of gujarat, and people fail to realize that politics, humans are much more than just symbols. whatever modi does hereafter, the symbol will always remain attached to him.
the only big problem is, the congress is just as bad as the bjp, in my opinion, even worse…
that they fielded a much higher no. of criminal candidates kind of validates that. and in case of any kind of respectable options, modi will only flourish further. people will continue to vote only ‘for or against modi’. unfortunately, i don’t see a way out of it.
my only hope is that modi does not become big on the national political scene (my guess: he won’t, am always an optimist).
ayway, the people of gujarat have chosen. my opinion has always been that the politicians of a state or country genuinely represent the kind of people constituting it. so let’s just forget everything and wear that frightening modi mask which came to symbolize this election…
V for ‘vendetta’ anyone??
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Mini
‘The much touted 9% growth rate of the Indian economy has to be logically based on national and international loot. ‘
again, what does this mean ??
by reading a lot of ur posts, i suspect u r kinda ‘high’ when u write
(i still cant forget ur calling rd burman a ‘mediocre’ composer)..
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@Filmibhai
too late for this, but anyway…
Your argument still doesn’t prove that Islam is against arts.
Its kind of sad that we judge people by their rulers but alas! that’s the way it is.
Don’t go by what maulavis etc. say. If we go by what panditjis or maulavis tell us, burning women alive is a part of Hinduism (which it is not and never was!).
And about Gandhi and his philosophy, it is pretty much clear that I can’t say anything that will convince you to believe that it takes much more strength to stand up against the evil and not resort to same methods to counter it than to escape to violence. Quoting Ramuji again ‘Hate cannot be countered with Hate’
Even I am no completely convinced that it always works but I want to believe that it does. Whatever little I have read, I have never read anything like Gandhi’s philosophy.
By the way, give me one Asian/African country that got independence by violent methods(wars) and is in a better position than us.
Can’t believe people still take so much interest in elections! I don’t see what difference does it make. Whoever wins its the same economic policies that guarantee money to Ambanis and Tatas, more jobs to middle class and no jobs to tribals and poor people. As far as communal tension is concerned, as someone pointed out, congress in no better. They are just smarter to maintain a cleaner, ’secular’ public image on these issues.
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@ mini
this is not an editorial page. kindly refrain from using such victorian language which becomes seems very odd to include in such an informal conversation. right words at right forum at the right time, right?
just a suggestion, if u ever happen to take one. otherwise agree with u….ahem…completely, for a change…
@mr. rahul dholakia
feel sorry for u sir! there go another five years before their is a chance of parzania releasing in gujarat.
@filmibhai
be open to discussion sirjee, instead of suggesting alternate professions to people….
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“The much touted 9% growth rate of the Indian economy has to be logically based on national and international loot. The whole myth of of a surging Gujarat, for instance, is a pure chimera”..
..kindly catch this link..
http://ushome.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/21gujpoll.htm
( how modi’s development differs from the development of chandrababu..)
…the logic of gujaratis…
read this
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main36.asp?
filename=Ne291207fascism.asp
http://in.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/23bhatt.htm
..its all right to sit as armchair activists and denounce modi for his deeds in 2002…n yes he still is an obsessed zealot with anti-muslim agenda…but power has diluted his viciousness and he is focussing his energy on empowerment and not on chimeric development..
..come to think of it how many states in india have been able to do even a part of what modi has done in 5 years…empowerment is serious business and we all know that it happens over time and is definitely more difficult and prolonged than building bridges and IT Cities…but rather than pointing out faults in his honest intentions..how about restricting our generalisations…
…n yes how about giving a person a second chance…
laloo yadav wid all his fodder scams behind him transformed railways in such a manner that it is now taught as case study in management schools…
anwar sadat wid long history of jew-phobia had a peace pact wid israel..
then why can’t we modi a chance..who has looked beyond 2002…and focussed on development in true sense of word and ensured a riot free gujrat..
p.s. modi has won not because he is a good person or ram rajya administrator..it is just because his opposition congress,left n ilk are so morally bankrupt..that they do not think twice before evoking the name of lofty principles and do pithy work at ground level..
..if development and empowerment.. is not happening in gujrat…then what is happening in name of social justice in U.P.,,,what is happening in name of equality in bengal…( are rich not becoming richer n poor becoming poorer there) ..at least empowerment in gujrat is much more than these states..
..n that is why people get nauseated when congress,left(which practises economics in kolkata n politics in delhi) and regional parties hide n chose to play beneath the veneer of moral superlatives…
..come to think of it what V.p. singh did in name of social justice..( created obc reservation..benefits of which hardly reach 0.5% of obc’s and that too already well to do ones…and which divided whole of u.p. and bihar among caste fault lines..)..left is the most hypocrite of lot..and there is appalling poverty the moment you step out of kolkata…and we all know how muslim appeasement by mulayam n y.s.r. has got to such high levels in u.p. n andhra..that police complains of high-handedness in their operations against terrorist activity..come to think of it in u.p. the blast are planned and executed within 1 day in courts when there were altercation between lawyers n leshker-e-taiyyabba militants..
…gujrat is perhaps an example of the fact..that people will select development n empoerment under a person whose hands are washed with muslim blood rather than listen too appeasent and lofty ideals of congress n leftists who are too corrupt or hypocrites to implement them.
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@KJ
Sorry if this is getting irritating but this is debate dear you wont get to listen what u want to…
Sure I know about Fascicm but to say that Modi is Fascist means 2 crores Gujarartis who have voted for him are fascist too. Fascism is what u see in West Bengal where every voter is marked and tracked by a comrade and free media is not allowed inside, where Election Commission cannot conduct free and fair vote and where people are terrorized.
If u read the minority commission report of states, u wud be amazed to know that muslims in non congress ruled states is much better and better still in Gujarat.
Crying insecurity and communalism for chorting muslims into herds and gain poltically have been
a age old ploy of congress and by writing stuff like ”on blood of muslims” , people propagate it.
If my kins wud die in riots sure i would be angry but wont brood over it whole my life and sure move on.
Y one shud be afraid of saying that some muslims are infact traitors and mislead muslim majority as some do in Hindus as well. I dont support Pravin Togadiya but I support Modi.
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KJ ji, your agreement with my line of thinking? God Almighty be praised for small mercies! As for your comment about my language being Victorian, it doesn’t seem as if you have read the Victorian literature carefully nor does it seem to me that you have been reading the editorial write-ups as an aware student of language. So for the time being the matter rests there.
As for filmbhai saheb attributing a statement (vis-a-vis RD Burman) to me which I never made, shows quite clearly who is more prone to substance abuse between the two of us. And I still maintain that the parallel you draw between the Moghul emperors and Zia-ul-Haq is based on a highly tenuous understanding of history. But given the headstrong streak you seem to have to get obsessed with self-induced notions of what you believe others are saying, it would be highly unlikely to send you back to books.
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arre the irritating part was only pseudo this and that. rest i hv no problems with.
sirjee… i went to gujarat recently and i know for a fact that many muslims too were rooting for modi.
the fact of the matter is that most muslim leaders have been forced into compliance and thus, there is no organized conflict b/w people, all people have returned to work and hence the muslims are flourishing too, and those not affected directly by the riots were hailing this newfound peace and progress. but is it real peace? as in ‘War is Peace’ as described in orwell’s 1984?
sooner or later the togadias and uma bhartis bajrangis will again need just a trigger like godhra to return to their main aim of ayodhya and the bukharis of delhi will also jump in the pool f hatred and the result would be just the same as has always been.
my only contention is that what of people who lost their loved ones for nothing? and what of modi defending himself on the sohrabuddin issue?
but i can understand your sentiment…
one thing is that i would never vote in such an election where you have a tiger on one side and crocodile on the other, but if one would really force me into voting, i’d probably wear a modi mask and vote for him, coz i won’t be face myself in the mirror…..
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Prashant Bhai, if only you knew how badly the vote in Gujarat was split, you wouldn’t make the sweeping statement about the 2 crore Gujaratis voters being deductively labelled as fascists by those who express not only a sense of dismay but more seriously a sense of concern at how the Indian polity is changing for the worse. Your argument is a typical example of the logic of willfull oversight. As Simon and Garfunkel said in one of their songs: “People hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest”. The myth of which you are such an obvious proponent goes like this:
1. There exists a utopian monolith identified as the 2 crore Gujarati voters.
2. Anyone who questions the vaunted wisdom of this monolith (the 2 crore Gujarati voters) is attacking Gujarati asmita or Gujarati pride.
3. Through a subterfuge of “condensation and displacement” – a little psychoanalysis once used so liberally in the film studies of the 70s – the monolith and the Gujarati asmita become subsumed within the persona of a single Super Subject called Narendra Modi.
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KJ bhaii..I also understand what u r saying and I am also against any kind of fundamentalism but we live in real world with real people..
If u read Tehelka very well but also see other resourses as in our country most corrupt is Media..
In a tumultos time when people desperately look for development and plain speaking, hiding behind mask is not that bad a idea after all…
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oye miniji!
now i’ll have to take out my boxing gloves again! small mercies they were indeed!
i was hoping that you would ignore the word victorian and not take it literally.
“BJP professes a culture of aggression rooted in a pogrommatic unconscious”
ending of sentence with phrasal adjective, common victorian literature practice.
and no, i m not a student of language, but i understand enough to top my cat exam in that section.
there, stating unnecessary facts for the sake of credibility, and so that ’some ppl’ stop teaching me language. he he….
by the way, the word pogrommatic is showing with a red line under it on my firefox, so now u’ll be my source of ‘vocab for dummies’…
prashant bhai, as i had said earlier that fascism caters to the tanginle needs of the populi and works on altering the intangible in accordance to it’s own requirement. so i doubt that people in gujarat really see narendra modi as a ‘fascist’.
and my belief: idealism of today becomes reality of tomorrow…..
maybe when we do get a good govt. we would be proud to say that we live in a real world with real people…..
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read the editorial analysing the election results…
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/FullcoverageStoryPage.aspx?id=476631e0-235e-4f5f-b55b-4a9a7a0f34cdGujaratVotes_Special&&Headline=Assembly+polls%3a+Narendra+Modi+is+king+of+Gujarat
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another thing which irritates a lot is modi’s growing megalomania. he has also started referring to himself in third person in his speeches…
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If only you knew elementary psychoanalysis, you would know that the word ‘unconscious’ is used as a noun. Very Un-Victorian that!
The word pogrommatic is a neologism ands reflects a programmatic approach to staging ‘pogroms’. Your thesaurus obviously sees red.
Glad to know you passed your cat. I didn’t appear for fear of failing.
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he of course is a megalomaniac…but then in india almost every politician who wields such mass influence is..what do u think about mayawati n jaylalita..jus because they do not speak in third person does not say much in their favour..at his peak even laloo campaigned like this though of course he had a sense of humour which helped…
…modi on the face of it is like a missile who can go wrong anytime given his autocratic style of functioning and anti-muslim bias…as we had seen post godhra…but unfortunately we suffer from a lack of choices…those who get votes from back ward castes n minorities in name of secularism n social justice do nothing for them…
examples abound rajsekhar reddy, laloo yadav..west bengal..
… in past 3 years i hv grown sick of congress trying to tread middle ground…dis investment of loss-making psu is in shambles thanks to left..instead of investing in primary education first ..finance ministry doles out 8ooo crore for reservation to obc( and it was a political issue aimed at u.p. elections..as arjun singh himself admitted..)…its national rural employment scheme is in shambles….and we see daily the games health minister plays…
..every minister in this government has his own hidden agenda…and worse the prime minister does not know or has no control over his ministers…this
..left has black mailed and literally paralysed government over issues it openly practises in west bengal…see its SEZ hypocrisy…
..in july the prime minister wants to call left’s bluff and is ready to sacrifice his government for it….in october he goes into a shell…then in november sensing left’s unease over nandigram decides to renegotiate it..wtf is his our foreign policy is hostage to blackmail by hypocrites..we never had it this bad..
…in u.p. and andhra terrorists sleeper cells are activated..blasts planned and executed within 2 days…terrorism goes on as if there was no tomorrow..
..what is the use of an honest but spineless prime-minister,a spineless home-minister…if this is the price we have to pay for social and communal justice..then we are better of without it…modi for all his viciousness has never asked for votes in name of his backward caste credentials..has he..?
…finally take example of russia..when yeltsin..a true liberal democrat with an ardour for democracy was in charge..the whole economy was in shambles…when putin an ex k g b man wid autocratic style gets on with things…economy improves..russian ppl are happy now..at least materialistically..
..lets suppose your child falls sick n u hv to get him operated which doctor would u chose an honest one or an able one…?
…look what social justice created for us..mulayam,laloo,mayawati,prakash karat..tell me honestly if u had a choice between them n modi whom would u choose..?
…in my opinion the debates of justice come only after development has ocurred…and thankfully both the rural and urban populace of gjrat has seen through this bluff…
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ya, my mistake. didn’t go to elementary school. feared failing…
and glad u didn’t appear for the exam, lest they’d have had to introduce upper cutoffs just to make sure ppl who know more than the faculty are kept out….
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anupam, agree with u completely…
but there are other candidates who do not belong to the congress either. there are genuine people and many independent candidates who are good. i know it doesn’t make a difference to the election result, but i’d rather vote for them. the ec should really introduce the protest vote option. would make atleast a few ppl go through the entire lit of candidates…
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This is the saddest day for our country..it reflects so much about where we are heading as to where we THINK we are heading..
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Slightly off-topic but some guys have pointed mohd. younis in their comments so i m putting a link here abt his grameenphone, written in devnagri script
http://rejectmaal.blogspot.com/2007/12/blog-post_17.html
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Wellsaid Anupam….people of Gujarat actually delievered one tight slap to all those who think that people of a such a matured democracy are naive and foolish to invariably be driven by polarization. There is nothing like this in real Gujarat.
@KJ…bhaisahab aap baithe rahna aisi real society ke intezaar me…sach to hai ki nothing like this exists or will ever exists….we always try to evolve that and sometime the way involves swallowing bitter pills..such as Gujarat 2002.
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Anupam,
what’s your definition of ‘development’ because mine includes social justice as a part of development.
In any case, “debates of justice come only after development has occured”, when and where do you think this so called development stops(if it ever does)?
@AmitP
thanks for the link, lots of masala to read and think
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Great Post Ramu..
the election results, Scary Shit!!!
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neeraja
ok do some research urself now . if im right there are 4 schools of thought in Islam (major ones atleast). All of them concur, on the basis of qoutations from the Quran, that music, painting and dance are not permissible (haram).
its actually a fact . i wont get anything by lying to u
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ive seen different ppl posting their views , but u, Mini, are special. u r a bully who is just too egoistic to come out and accept that u could be wrong somewhere.
on top of that instead of giving good arguments, all u do is drop some really fancy sentences in English and try to dazzle everybody.
54 Mini
‘As for filmbhai saheb attributing a statement (vis-a-vis RD Burman) to me which I never made, shows quite clearly who is more prone to substance abuse between the two of us.’
this is what u said with regard to rd burman in the Deciphering KKC thread:
118 – “The worst music in the Indian cinema happened in the 70s and 80s – approximately the period that coincides with RD Burman
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@neeraja
for me development means at least the right to basic education and primary health care and basic amenities(electricity,water) to all of the people…and i would like to refer to it as basic empowerment…and for me the issues of discrimination come after that..
since you have asked me this question… i would like to ask you some similar things..
1. what have the states harping maximally on issue of social justice given us….model states likes bihar or u.p. or west bengal…come on tell me if you had a choice where would you like to live in a village of bengal or village of gujrat..
2. even i agree when you talk of a development all inclusive of social justice…but you are talking of a utopian choices..here u have to choose between lesser evils..no where have i said…that modi is a good man..least of all he has had an actve role in mass genocide…but for me people like laloo,mayawati..who have taken their states 20 yrs back and divided their respective hindu society on caste fault lines are equally guilty if not less…and yes i have no soft words for mulayam who has been sole-handedly responsible for fostering isi terror factories in u.p….and i dont mince words while blaming left for alarming poverty in bengal inspite of their clamour for equality n social justice… and congress..aha the latest to jump on the social justice bandwagon..by creating new obc reservations made by a senile hrd minister..who himself admits he did it not because of the policy he had but because of election in mind..
..these folks have made social justice sound like sham..and makes me puke at them..
..i give these examples not to exonerate modi..but to state than when you blame people of gujrat for choices they have made..i will ask you what choices they had….
..in a utopian state..in which choices were fair,elections were fought by people of ideology n not pretence..i would surely have stood against fanatical zealot like modi…but not this day,not this state,not this election..
p.s.
1. by the way who do you think is more happy and developed a villager evicted from bejing forcibly by his government(which bludgeons the protest of democracy in full eye view at tienemenn square) against his choice…and rehabilitated to a place where he and his children are receiving free education,health care and food…..or his indian counterpant living in a slum in lucknow wid two times food,not able to afford education to his children..but yes asserting his right to live in the slum…
2. which do you think is a more developed russia..starving russia under democratic yeltsin or a resurgent russia under autocratic putin..?
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@Mainak: never missed an election myself AND voted underage for NTR in 1983! That was some election, it was the matter of Telugu Pride
@50 Neeraja
Can’t believe I read that right?
Why should people take so much interest in Elections? Because.
If you don’t want all the money to go to the Tatas and Ambanis, then dissect, dismember.elect.
or better still file nomination papers.
“Be the Change you want to see in the World – M K Gandhi”
@ Anupam
thanx for all the links and an alternative view point, very helpful and makes me see issues differently.
ditto HG/Prashant
@ K J : liked your definition of Fascism…..
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@filmibhai…
catch the uncanny similarity between somebody’s writing style and this article….
http://physics.nyu.edu/~as2/dawkins.html
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now catch this interesting analysis of oso n saawariya by an intellectual imposter..
please give me ur input if u could make sense of it without laughing..
http://www.epw.org.in/uploads/articles/11317.pdf
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@ Kavita -NTR in 1983! That was some election, it was the matter of Telugu Pride
1983 – god was still spendin hours designin someone !!!! who wud later grow on to love puttu and yethaikka and would want to become a movie maker ;)
he wudnt mind Aviyal too ;)
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Dear Minin
My language skills are no match to you. But I would still respond (ignore it if you think I never understood wat u wanted to say, correctly).
1. Though your point that there is no monolithic cluster of 2 crore Gujaratis is Valid. Wat I actually meant was 51% vote share that BJP got in this election that roughly amounts to 2 crore.
2. In absence of any above mentioned monolithic gujaratis, your arguments renders, the conclusion of asmita pride being the weapon of used by people like us, Invalid. But however if this is truth then y shud it worry anybody (including you) if we talk about gujarati asmita given that ur so confident that this obviously have no mass appeal.
3. All over the world democracies are essentially centrifuges around persona of leadership mixed with the issue this leadership confronts. So wats objectionable with Moditva except you cannot digest the defeat.
Prashant Bhai, if only you knew how badly the vote in Gujarat was split, you wouldn
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@george
I declare myself the Paati on PFC !!
You not even born in 83 ?
Am I surrounded my bacchas :d
I said UNDERAGE in 83, hope that helps!!!!
Aviyal anytime. Yethaikka enna?
@anupam: ROFL, Suchita needs to read that one on FEMALE GAZE.
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Dear Mini
My language skills are no match to you. But I would still respond (ignore it if you think I never understood wat u wanted to say, correctly).
1. Though your point that there is no monolithic cluster of 2 crore Gujaratis is Valid. Wat I actually meant was 51% vote share that BJP got in this election that roughly amounts to 2 crore.
2. In absence of any above mentioned monolithic gujaratis, your arguments renders, the conclusion of asmita pride being the weapon of used by people like us, Invalid. But however if this is truth then y shud it worry anybody (including you) if we talk about gujarati asmita given that ur so confident that this obviously have no mass appeal.
3. All over the world democracies are essentially centrifuges around persona of leadership mixed with the issue this leadership confronts. So wats objectionable with Moditva. All our political parties (least criminal being the BJP) revolve around a monolith of aam aadmi and a godfather/godmother.
4. Why should we not accept that who we are to judge people. If people in their collective wisdom want to punish a group y should few object. Isnt our all institution based on this philosophy.
5. Let our posterity be the judge of our deeds passing a judgemnet wud mean prejudging a issue with biased eyes, this is valid for both me and u.
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errata: ” by bacchas” – last post
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sorry for the repost.
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yethaikka = plantain = a fruit like a large BANANA, but less sweet, that is cooked and eaten. u can eat it directly also !!!
i love its combi with puttu
Come to mumbai and ur invited !!! will serve u this delight!!!
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Oh! Yes : sounds del.i.cios :d
Will deffy make Mary aunty cook for me don’t you worry.
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complimentary cakes also available … exclusive christmas special!!! ;)
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and akka i wudnt mind being invited for some hyderabadi biriyani !!!
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MERRY CHRISTMAS Man!!!
If it is Rum Cake / Fruit Cake can you please save some slices till March?
Pleaaaaaaaaze.
Sorry totally slipped my mind to wish with all this Modi Mayhem.
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ps: I give you a whole list of Telugu Cooking and you are happy just with the Biryani?
Will do.
Unfortunately you’ll get only the Veggie Version with me.
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Merry christmas to all !!!
well Rum/ fruit it is !!! wine wud be taste better if i am to save it till march but for cakes i better eat them now !!!
but no worries … i will be happy to disturb amma and she wud be happy to get disturbed by march for few more cakes !!! u wudnt mind “brandy” over it wud u ??
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I don’t drink alcohol but I have no qualms eating it!
Cheers!!
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how do u survive abroad being a veggie ?? must be tough !!! my friends doin MS there find it tough !!!
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Didn’t you read the thread about my cooking skills:)
Will demo when in mumbai, ok?
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gr8 !!!
mom adds it in tea spoons so no problem !!!
so now tat the menu is discussed .. u mail me the details of ur mumbai hit and halt !! and get the biriyani with u ;)
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i just love Hyderabadi biriyani !! i actually havent tasted the other cuisines !!! i believe most of them are very spicy !!! but the NV version of Hyd Bir is like heavens !!!
i wudnt mind the Veg version too !!!
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Yessir!
Biryani made on location,
don’t want to be caught by customs!
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gr8 …
so its gonna be “silent nyt ” for me … t c & have a good day !!!
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@Filmibhai
hmmmn…ok, advice taken. I’ll try to find time and resources to do that.
Waise, I have heard that there existed some character called Mr. Dawood in islamic tradition, who sang praises to God.
@Anupam
You are overreacting. I agree with most things you say but my point was that the ‘development’ you refer to has no end. One cannot address the issues of development and social justice one after the other. They are related and must be addressed together.
Injustice breeds people like Mayawati and Laloo, and you know what that leads to. So if you keep social justice aside for a while and concentrate on ‘development’ only, it may work for one state or two but never for the whole country for it will give rise to more Laloos and Mayawatis who will pull down your development.
PS : I do not blame the people of Gujrat for I know they do not have any better choice. A whole lot of non-deliverers vs a mass murderer, tough choice!
@Kavita
Sorry for that statement, didn’t really mean it. It was written in dismay over the current state of affairs.
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@Kavita
I’ll be the change I want to see. The process has started
@George and Kavita
huh? talk of all the good food when I might be having khichadi or pasta for christmas! :((
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@ pRASHANT
You don’t know me. So don’t fu#kin make personal conclusions about me.
“@Mainak..
I think ur utterly disgusting person. You dont have any write to pass sweeping statement like
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BTW talking about politics….I just came back from watching CHARLIE WILSON’s WAR.
Its great. The funniest political film I have seen. Philip Seymor & Tom Hanks are brilliant in it.
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@ 69 Prashant
Sorry Prashant – you are so blatantly off the mark!
I do not wish to break your heart early in the day but the total number of Gujarati electorate is 18.7 million which roughly translates into 1.87 crores – less than 2 crores by 1.3 million. I wonder where you are getting your figure of 2 crores from.
The Sangh Parivar is the biggest lie machine in the political, social and economic arena. When they come on public platforms, they simply shout the other side down. Some of the most recently debates conducted by the Indian media from Gujarat were amongst the most shameful ones. It is part of the mandatory training that fascists vigilantes have to undergo.
They come to these debates holding onto imaginary portfolios. They churn out figures that nobody questions. You cannot afford to be mentally lazy while confronted with the Sangh Parivar’s herculean lies. It is the only configuration that I have known that have won victories solely on the strength of the art of lying.
The lesson of rising out of sloth applies equally to the legions of blind admirers of so-called art cinema. They need to grow up. They need to read books. They need to be genuinely multi-disciplinary if they really want to sustain their “passion for cinemaa”. Otherwise, be ready to walk into the wastelands of imagined creativity.
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Sorry – but I forgot to contest your grossly inflated figure of 2 crores as the actual number of 51% Gujaratis who actually voted for the BJP. The actual number comes to roughly around 9.5 million – that is assuming that your claim about 51% pro-BJP vote in Gurjarat is true.
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‘catch the uncanny similarity between somebody
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@ Randhawa
“The lesson of rising out of sloth applies equally to the legions of blind admirers of so-called art cinema. They need to grow up. They need to read books. They need to be genuinely multi-disciplinary if they really want to sustain their
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The population of the Gujarat State was 50,671,017 as per the 2001 census data. The density of population is only 258 persons per sq. km. and compares favourably with the the other states of the country.
Its official and primary language is Gujarati. About 89.1% of the population of Gujarat are Hindu. [3] Muslims account for 9.1%, Jain 1.0% and Sikh 0.1% of the population. [4] Most of the Gujarati Hindus are strict vegetarians. Amongst Hindus the deity of Krishna is famously worshipped in His form of Shrinathji throughout Gujarat. Gujarat is the birthplace of Gandhi. Gujarat is also the birthplace of the Swaminarayan sect of Hinduism.
From Wikipedia!
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@ filmibhai..
“henceforth among the bi-univocal,ambivalence of the morally resplendent padagoguery in contextual fashion…and heuristic persiflage of the culturally repressed populace….the jabberwocky perpetrated by a “mini-me” emerges as a triumph in oeuvre…”…by anupam..
kuch samajh aaya..mujhe bhi nahi aaya tha likhte waqt main to sirf style maar raha tha….par dhyaan se dictionary le kar khojoge to iska bhi matlab nikal aayega..agar nahi aaya to tum intellectual pygmy ho..hehe…..now give me the title of mega-me ..i take a bow,,,
here is a tribute to “mini-mism” by the famous V in v for vendetta…
isko bujho to bataayen..
Voil
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as much i dislike modi but hav to admit one thing…think that guy is honest. whatever is his belief and philosophy is but unlike other corrupt politicians.detached in a way. n this victory explains a lot.
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Anupam
That was hilarious.
BTW I just noticed you gave those very good links for us to read. I had already done that before you
I found both the articles really good.
Do share more such discoveries while you listen to my new fav song.
http://hypem.com/artist/ratatat++spank+rock
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Anupam
& everyone
another great article
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24guest.htm
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@Mainak..
On retrospection, I made a mistake by getting personal.. I apologize for that.
But though you never said that Gujaratis are predators what shud be made out of your statemnet that Gujratis want to prosper on blood of muslims….who sucks blood for their sake??? A saint!!
@Mini..
Your explainations are just like playing around with words and no substance. I am sorry but organizations and people do not behave in such a complex manner in reality.
Secondly, I know that no. people actually voted for BJP is less than 2 crore…But if elections are meant to be a reflection on opinion of people then 49% of vote that BJP has got translates roughly into 2 crore.
See for veracity of 49% claim..
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/54888/12_2007/battle4guj_sagarika1/for-bjp-modi-win-can-be-a-doubleedged-sword.html
Your claims about Goebbel’s training for RSS is nothing but represent the failure of intellengtsia to connect with masses. Anyways if somebdy is against a organization wat else do u expect them to say about their propaganda.
The art of lying holds ground when u confront a group of 10-20 people not when hundreds of thousand come out and question u. You must be extremely insecure about your own idealogy’s failure to find audiences, when u make such a allegation. In Gujarat, villages have voted for BJP.. no propaganda works in village except true.
Atlast, on your advice to become multi-disciplinary by avoiding the cruel reality of field by escaping into a library holds true when u have to just write blogs and not make real changes.
# Mini Randhawa on December 23rd, 2007 9:42 pm
Sorry – but I forgot to contest your grossly inflated figure of 2 crores as the actual number of 51% Gujaratis who actually voted for the BJP. The actual number comes to roughly around 9.5 million – that is assuming that your claim about 51% pro-BJP vote in Gurjarat is true.
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I am not contesting the 49% (am I grateful that you chose to climb down by at least 2% from your earlier position). I am contesting the figure of 2 crores which was and remains a blatant lie.
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Blatant lie??? are we joking here….u tell me wat shud be made about 49% votes that BJP got in a state of about 5.5 crore….
OK even if u dont agreee with 2crore, but still our block is bigger than ours and it is that matters…
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Blatant lie, most certainly
1. Not evryone out of the figure cited by you 5.5 crores is a voter. Cannot be.
2. Please visit the Election Commission site. It clearly mentions the total number of electorate from Gujarat at 36591717.
3. Now even if we assume that the polling in Gujarat was 100% – which as everyone knows was far from the case – the total number of votes polled in favour of the BJP at 49% would be 17929941 which I hope you realize is much less than the figure of 2 crores that you are stuck with.
4. As is by well known, the overall polling in Gujarat was in the viciinity of 60% or even less. In this case, you would see the figure falling drastically around 2 crores or even less.
5. 60% of the electorate cited above is 21955030.
4. 49% of 21955030 is, well my dear Prashant Bhai, is 10757964.
So much for your blatant mythification.
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In a state of 5.5 crore (your figure not mine) Gujaratis only 10757964 Gujaratis (my figure not yours) voted for Hindu Hridya Samraat, Mr Narinder Modi. So much for you and so much for your Modi.
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are yaaar but y do you think the rest are with you…..if we go by law of averages,,,and divide the rest o populace we get to figure of 2 coore
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This is exactly what I meant by the Sangh Parivar LIE MACHINE. The rest of them ARE NOT with MODI. Thats the point.
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then y dont they come out and vote BJP and RSS out like they do in some other states. I think wat u r contending is pseudo-secularist’s blatant lie….
Its like saying head I win tail u lose…Hats off to you dear
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‘This is exactly what I meant by the Sangh Parivar LIE MACHINE. The rest of them ARE NOT with MODI. Thats the point.’
ok .. prove it now
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Abbe…Gujarat gaya bhaad mein…forget all that..
Merry Christmas to everyone at PFC!!
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Machchar bhaiii…merry christmas to u and everybdy else….magar Gujarat ko bhaad me ba bhejo bhaiii..
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@filmibhai..hahahha
sahi baat….aisa hi hota hai…isi ko kahte hain….hum fenke to keechad or woh fenke to gangajal (wat u throw is Gangajal and what we do is dirt)
…If pseudo-secularist say something we have to accpet it as truth lest it offends their intellectual acumen and watever sangh parivar says then is ofcourse automaticlly lie..
Is second citizen status of minorities in Islamic country..lie
Is demolition of hindu temples in pakistan, malaysia and bangladesh lie.
Where is the hindu and sikh minority that was left behind in pakistan at the time r partition… our muslim population has grown to 15 crore and wat about the hindus in bangladesh where have they vanished….their vanishment is also a myth…
Y should I not be afraid of Muslims if this is wat our brethren get when they become majority…Look Kashmir…
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45 Mini
‘The much touted 9% growth rate of the Indian economy has to be logically based on national and international loot.’
enough bulshitting .. Explain This statement ! already I and Anupam have nailed u as a liar .
‘The bubble will hopefully burst in a few years when ecological disasters will start visiting us without a warning and grossly and excruciatingly overstay their welcome.’
I am beginning to suspect that u r a sociopath.
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Mini behenji .. referring to ur post no 116
‘1. Not evryone out of the figure cited by you 5.5 crores is a voter. Cannot be.
2. Please visit the Election Commission site. It clearly mentions the total number of electorate from Gujarat at 36591717.
3. Now even if we assume that the polling in Gujarat was 100% – which as everyone knows was far from the case – the total number of votes polled in favour of the BJP at 49% would be 17929941 which I hope you realize is much less than the figure of 2 crores that you are stuck with.
4. As is by well known, the overall polling in Gujarat was in the viciinity of 60% or even less. In this case, you would see the figure falling drastically around 2 crores or even less.
5. 60% of the electorate cited above is 21955030.
4. 49% of 21955030 is, well my dear Prashant Bhai, is 10757964. ‘
doesnt the same arithmetic hold true for election in any Indian state .. or even for Lok sabha election comprising all the states .. (coz there is no state where 100% citizens have voter cards)
by ur twisted logic , all the elections in India should be deemed inauthentic . more so for govts which just abt get majority by a whisker (and where the polling percentage is usually around 50-55% , compared to the above 60% in gujarat). here on the other hand Modi has got a convincing majority.
Ah ! maybe the Extra-Terrestorials are involved in a conspiracy too , eh ?
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All your facts have fallen flat and now you are resorting to the old fascist technique of mimicry. Pathetic, I say!
For others, at least in 33 constituency, Modi could have lost:
CONSTITUENCY BJP CONGRESS DIFF Others
Rajpipla 37722 37091 631 2807
MANDAL 34843 34166 677 3818
KHAMBHALIA 40358 39560 798 4275
KANKREJ 37930 37090 840 28934
JAMNAGAR 33021 31941 1080 1098
KADI 65835 64508 1327 3848
GADHADA 50579 49152 1427 1478
SURAT CITY 39607 37908 1699 2584
ANAND 63745 61975 1770 12134
KALOL 27565 25255 1884 2443
CHIKHLI 59471 57204 2267 2708
SIDHPUR 52610 50181 2429 2694
MANGROL 48256 45625 2631 6171
BOTAD 69662 66474 3188 5322
VIRAMGAM 47643 44327 3316 5150
MANSA 44381 41011 3370 10478
GANDHINAGAR 81864 78116 3748 6894
RAKHIAL 53993 50048 3945 4823
DASADA 38174 34108 4066 6316
SIHAR 50756 46638 4118 6474
AMRELI 48767 44578 4189 4540
VISAVADAR 38179 33950 4229 5473
UPLETA 36602 31917 4685 6087
SOMNATH 61233 56004 5229 7099
BAYAD 40395 34711 5684 6676
CHota UDAIPUR44422 38304 6118 8056
KALAWAD 39497 33225 6272 7142
WADHAWAN 47466 40564 6902 23261
DANGS 56860 48977 7883 9456
KUTIYANA 37130 27980 9150 11124
VADGAM 50481 40776 9705 16372
ABDASA 39004 28985 10019 12397
CAMBAY 50163 40086 10077 11765
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You talk such unmitigated nonsense that it isn’t even possible to have a civil discourse with such a one as you. My comment was in response to Prashant’s exaggerated claim of 2 crores people having voted for the Hindu Hriday Samraat. You have a great gift, as all Sanghis do, to delibrately misinterpret. You need serious conselling man!
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Calm down ladies! I don’t know why you guys are freting over a percent or a figure or whatever. It don’t matter much. He coulda lost. He shoulda lost. He woulda lost. If. Modi won. End of discussion.
O meri Munni, i mean, Mini..
Regarding the last paragraph in the comment no 45 of yers.. Politics and Multiplex… why don’t you write something on that topic and submit it for Projekt iView, eh? Why dontcha flex your mind on that?
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and btw calling me names wont help .. u seem to be a pathological liar Mini .. and a show off to boot .
atleast reply to my post no 125 and try and redeem urself
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Fist fighting is much more beneficial than virtual fighting:d
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u can have a round with Mini if u like :d .. i always enjoyed watching those 70’s hindi films where the heroin and the vamp used to get physical .. tearing at each other’s hair and screaming ‘kamiiiniii’ .. lawl
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You mean mini is the villain.. very bad. you can’t categorize people without knowing them especially since you are having a virtual fight with her… you should be sporting enough to accept defeat…
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Hey guys…lets not demonize anybdy. If Mini has different point of view we could try to find common grounds but not like this.
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@mini..
same hold true for congress..they have won seats with margin as low as 17 votes.
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http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24guest.htm
Did Modi’s machismo prevail ultimately?
I had the opportunity to extensively travel in Gujarat in December 2006 as a part of a team of economists, trying to understand the ‘growth story’ of the state. The reverence or contempt that the commoner had for Modi was extraordinary, but with a crucial difference. The former opinion outnumbered the latter many times over. Even Jayalalithaa, the former Tamil Nadu chief minister, to my mind, did not attract such extreme reactions from the common man during her first term.
Again without taking sides (which is indeed very difficult when it comes to Modi) one could see that the administration was kept on its toes. For instance, when it came to the floods in Surat in August 2006, locals recalled with gratitude as to how Modi personally stayed in Surat to supervise relief operations.
Similarly, whenever we met any businessman in Gujarat, one could see the sense of relief in handling an administration that was relatively clean by Indian standards.
Surely, it is remarkable that despite an acrimonious campaign, a person like Modi, with so many baiters within his own party, Opposition and the media, did not attract any serious charge of being personally corrupt.
In fact, this, I understand is at the root of local dissidence within the BJP.
Similarly, when we passed through rural Gujarat and sought notes to the Gujarat development story, anecdotal references collected by our team pointed out to some spectacular thrust by the administration on rural infrastructure, water, micro-irrigation, education and power. “Modi’s claim of providing 24 hour power to the countryside is a huge sham,” a local leader from the Congress would say and add sheepishly “We get power only for 22 hours.”
The only area where we felt Gujarat was lacking behind was in rural health — a fact that Modi seems to be quite conscious of.
When I asked Modi what the goals for the next few years were I distinctly recall his deep breath, a short pause and typical swagger when he said, “From now on the benchmark for Gujarat is no more any other state of the Indian Union. Rather, it would be south-east Asia.”
Despite all this talk of development it is indeed a sad state of affairs that the political debate during the Gujarat election centred over the unfortunate events five years back rather than what could happen five years hence.
And when the coordinates of the political discourse were drawn midway during the campaign, it was Modi’s machismo and not his development agenda that mattered. And that to me is a colossal tragedy for Indian politics.
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http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24guest.htm
Will this win alter the collective psyche of voters in India?
What is crucial is the manner in which this win could alter the collective psyche of the majority community vis-a-vis the minority communities and as a natural sequel alter the political discourse within the country.
To understand the implications, at the outset, one needs to understand the psyche of an average Indian. Talk to any Indian, one would instantly find his desire for a ’strong, assertive and effective’ leader. This requires some explanation.
Secularists, with their firm belief that the concept of this nation could be built from a clean slate without any reference to her past, are oblivious of this set of voters and their psyche. Remember, we are a nation with a historical baggage of defeats in the past thousand years or so. Much as the secularists may deny, our collective psyche has a subconscious yet powerful relationship with our history, especially this unpleasant history.
That would mean that an average Indian is ready to tolerate a leader who could be by and large accused of being dictatorial, undemocratic or even fascist by some. In fact, an average Indian would never understand the import of these words.
On the other hand, an average Indian understands, assumes and expects his leader to have a dash of idiosyncrasies.
It is a perfectly acceptable trade-off in the Indian context — a leader who is ‘dictatorial’ and yet addresses the collective consciousness, fears and apprehensions of the voters.
While this may be incomprehensible to the secular mind, this understanding of the mind of his voters facilitates Modi to even ensure transfer of any personal abuse into the abuse of his voters, every political debate into ‘us’ versus ‘them.’
Naturally, this approach becomes all the more potent in a nation that has seen rapes, plunders and murders over the millennia. And our collective understanding is that all this happened because we Indians were never politically conscious of defending ourselves.
Crucially, we did not have strong leaders to defend the nation from such predators. And that would substantially, if not wholly, explain our romantic fixation with Chhatrapati Shivaji and his ilk.
It also explains as to why reactions to events like Partition remain highly provocative even after six decades. In contemporary politics that would mean there is a captive voter, should someone articulate these concerns effectively. And Modi fits the bill perfectly.
Call it by whatever name — Hindutva or Moditva — Modi is a master at voicing this concern of his voter in the contemporary setting. It is not merely the bijli, sadak and paani (power, roads and water) issues — it is much more and includes national security, terrorism, regional pride and, of course, a clean administration as a vehicle for growth.
Further, by talking about development simultaneously, Modi represents the temporal link between the past, the present and the future.
And if the Gujarat election results were any indication, it is very clear that the secularists and some within the media (who carry a pathological hatred for him) would play into his hands in the future too. Naturally as they get shriller, it would suit Modi more. In fact, that would mean, the secularists would do the job of polarising the voters for him and not the other way round.
Given these arguments, Modi’s win would in all probability alter the psyche of some section of the voters as they could become more assertive. That could mean increased communal tensions and social friction. As Indian society gets divided on these lines, it could well lead to the revival of militant Hinduism — leading to shriller retaliation from the secularists leading to a vicious spiral of polarisation of the polity, voters and society. And in such a surcharged atmosphere it is Modi who would probably emerge as a winner.
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Man! I never liked statistics or anything related to it and here I am reading it post after post. Guys, have some mercy!
By the way, why do RSS sympathisers start bashing congress when someone points out the hypocrisy of the Sangh parivar? Nobody is saying that congress is any better. We can start another post for congress bashing but lets concentrate on Sanghis for now :D
@Mini
Hindu Hriday Samrat, Narinder Modi =))
@Prashat(124)
What do you mean by all that? We should start doing the same? Please correct me if I am misinterpreting.
@HG
‘Clam down ladies!’ :O don’t tell me that filmibhai is actually a behen! or is it prashant or anupam?
@Mainak
Your conclusions are scary.
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@Filmibhai
You didn’t tell me if I was right about Dawood bhai.
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Check out what our ex RAW Chief B Raman has to say about Modi’s Appeal to young Hindus -
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24raman.htm
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Dear Neeraja,
if ur so unsure about so many things…y do u care…
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@136 Mainak
No my comments were in reference to unrestrained depradation of ecology in the name of industrial and economic growth. This referes as much to Gujarat as to the rest of India; as much to Modi as to Manmohan; as much to BJP as to Congress!
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Okay…This argument will continue forever…
Look at the bigger picture. Modi reflects the thoughts and feelings of the majority of Hindus in Gujarat if not the whole of India.
I don’t hate Muslims and in fact, one of my best friends is a Muslim. But the question here is not about that small group of educated Muslims but the majority, uneducated, impoverished, on the edge and zombified Muslims.
Muslims wanted a separate country and they got it. India chose to remain secular and treated them as one of their own. In fact, Muslims should blame Congress for all their problems today. Congress is their biggest enemy.
Right from the time Jawaharlal Nehru played petty politics with Kashmir and Sheikh Abdullah, using him when its convenient and putting him behind bars when it is not, Nehru did not realize that he was tearing apart the bond between Muslims and Hindus and the future India would suffer the consequences.
When Maharaja Hari Singh signed the instrument of accession, Sheikh Abullah was hiding for his life in Lucknow. A special chopper was dispatched to bring him back to Kashmir. Nehru was best buddies with the Sheikh.
But later, Congress played dirty politics with the Kashmiris for power. Today’s Muslims would not have been so frustrated if the situation was handled more sensitively then.
Okay, forget Kashmir. In rest of India, Muslims enjoyed equal respect and status. They were given reservations, freedom to follow their own personal laws etc. The Razakars in Hyderabad revolted against India and thousands died but in spite of that…Muslims in Hyderabad were treated with kid gloves. The same MIM, which attacked Indian forces is today a major political party in Hyderabad. Will this happen in any other country in the world?
So despite all this, why did Gujarat boil? Don’t put the blame on Ayodhya. What happened in Ayodhya was just a reaction to the situation in Kashmir. Muslims always wanted more. It is against the tenets of their faith to live like equals to another religion. They should be in control. That’s what the holy book teaches.
I was in Hyderabad when Babri Masjid was demolished. I actually saw a few Hindus being chased by talwar wielding Muslims…That visual still haunts me. It is an established and agreed fact that the Muslim raiders plundered and destroyed many temples through out India and built mosques. Almost every major mosque in India stands on the ruins of some temple. Okay…Hindus even forgot this…Let’s live…But…there was one mosque which even Muslims were not using until Hindus wanted it. Whether you people agree or not, Ram is an important part of every Hindu. All they wanted was a temple for their beloved god in the city of Ayodhya, where Ram is believed to be born.
So what does India get in return? Dawood Ibrahim’s bombings, train blasts, Godhra massacre….Akshardam attacks….Okay…Agreed that no one is entirely blameless. But why do Muslims want to push it further and bring Armageddon closer? They have to understand that the present day Hindus are not the same Hindus who were the slaves under the Mughal rulers…They are more assertive today..
Malaysia is demolishing temples. Do you think Hindus should start bombing and killing? Pakistan has demolished hundreds of temples in their country. The Bamiyan statues were destroyed by the Taliban. If you guys get so angry over one mosque, imagine what the rage should be for all this destruction? Did Hindus retaliate so forcefully?
Gujarat happened because Hindus are sick and tired of being taken for granted.
Do you know any place in India is Communally sensitive ONLY where there is a Muslim Majority? HAHA!
A location where there are majority of Hindus and Muslims living in minority is always assumed a safe place…Why? Did anyone try to understand this? Muslims were always safe with Hindus….Is it the same case vice versa?
So who is to be blamed for this? The religious leaders. By denying Muslims education, better living, they are just creating an army of zombies, ready to do their bidding at any time. What happens to all those billions that come from Saudi as donations? Did any Saudi donation was used to build a better housing complex for Muslims with clean sanitation and water supply? Go to any Muslim majority locality in India from Hyderabad to Lucknow to Mumbai….What comes to your mind? Dirty lanes…flowing garbage…goat shit…Why doesn’t the global Ummah help with this problem first? Why don’t our Muslim brothers demand this instead of regular supply of qurans and mosques?
We need a strong leader. None of the present day leaders have spines. I see that a little bit in Modi. ONLY if he looks at the bigger picture. India will prosper. Muslims and Hindus again will live together peacefully.
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bravo Machchar .. these kids have been brainwashed by our bogus-secular channels cnnibn/ndtv etc and will have a tough time gulping down these facts.
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‘But the question here is not about that small group of educated Muslims but the majority, uneducated, impoverished, on the edge and zombified Muslims.’
Kafil Ahmad (the Indian guy who happily rammed his explosive-laden vehicle into glasgow airport) was a software engineer. shows what radicalization can do to educated ppl .
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@filmibhai:
Yes….totally agree with you. In fact I missed covering that point. Now with educated Muslims too becoming part of the global terror movement, the situation looks very bleak for unity in India.
No wonder Hindus are angry and on their toes. The more they hit, Hindus will react more strongly…
Okay, what if India asks a simple question? Take Kashmir, but also take all the Muslims of India along?
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@ Machchar,
They will take Kashmir and will make promise to take all the muslims by some timeline.
BTW do u really think pak is concerned ab’t indian muslims as many muslims in india do ?
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^^ no yar thats not right .. but traitors of India (like congress, mulayam singh, MIM etc who encourage the loonies) need to be tamed firmly. for that ppl like us need to vote em out.
taking a clue from how Turkey dealt with its muslim population will help a lot in the coming decades .. only if these blood sucking parties stopped their short term appeasement policies .
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my comment was for Machchar @147
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And to think that these are the people who “passionately” support the cinema of Anurag Kashyap and Sudhir Mishra! Frightening, absolutely!
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Mini? What did we say wrong? To say that Muslims in India should place India above their Global Ummah is wrong?
To say that Muslims, in spite of the equal opportunities here feel always at war with our country?
Is to be a Hindu and to be proud of that face means we have to be ashamed? Is this what our country has come to?
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there was always a latent strain in social fabric of hindus n muslims..even during the independence movement..they briefly bonded only to be further alienated by partition.
at the time of partition..most of the rich and upper class muslims went to pakistan and relatively poor ones persisted in india. sachar comittee and old muslim system blaims government for their continuing ills and political demagogues like mulayam take advantage of it..when in reality they have to find their answers from within through better education..that emphasis is sorely missing in rural muslim populace…that difference i would categorically say is the biggest difference between a rural hindu n a muslim…while poor non-muslims in india look as education as only means for class salvation of their children..the muslims are still caught in the ghettos of madarsas and their traditional customs…what the muslim samaaj needs today is a moderate reformer..unfortunately that voice is missing today…what we ave is leaders of simi,suni,mim…and that is the voice of muslim today…when people like javed akhtar,shabana aazmi start to speak about the liberal face of muslims..they do so rarely n selectively…
..come think of it..for every hardened faces of hinduism like modi n togadia…there are ten liberals voicing discontent at their ways head -on..even though modi has proved to be an effective administrator..people accept him not wholly but with a pinch of salt…and they debate the legacy he might leave..is there a forthcoming popular muslim leader in india who comes out and debates against the regressive outloom of imaam bukhari..naah..n here in lies the tragedy of indian muslim..
..rather than modernizing madarsas,ensuring education and taking the risk of engaging middle-class muslims..congress and mulayam with all their doubble-speak have chosen to engage the radical elements..wid terrible results..
..rajeev gandhi for all his naivet marks the start of the long winter of muslim discontent…he over-ruled the shah bano judgement of supreme court..( too woo radical muslims..)…he,yes he laid the foundation of ram janmabhoomi stone in ayodhya..( playing by the gallery of radical vhp..)…his party congress wid a long history of forging elections and using governors as pawns in game of power..rigged elections in kashmir toppling the elected harkat government and destroying the equilibrium of kashmiri society…
..when we come to the respect our oldest democratic party congress has for democracy….it all amounts to sycophancy,puppet prime-ministers and power play wid governors..
..if this is the legacy of secularist party..we are better of without it…
..post 9\11…terrorist attacks…the contrast is marked…and can not be ignored…
…an analysis of bjp vote shows that maximum o its vote comes from hindu middle n upper middle class…why do u think it is so..do not they hate mass murderers,mosque breakers,riot-mongerers,…or are they less ethically sensitive as compared to poor hindus( who are divided along basis of caste n vote for regionally leaders..)..it is just because they have got tired of this policy of fomenting the radical muslims and dividing the hindu community on caste lines…
read the catchy slogans of these parties..
1. bsp..tilak,taraazu aur talwaar inko maaro jute chaar..(early 90’s)…now(yesterday) mayawati… we propose 30% reservation in private sector…10% dalits n muslims,10% obc’s,10% poor upper caste hindus..( wtf as if obc’s n dalits are not hindus)..
2. laloo..MY..(muslim,yadav0
3. mulayam..MY..(muslim n yadav)
4. left..we believe in class less n caste less society..very good..but then look at their double speak…..left wid all their honest leaders has a baffling stand on secularism…they opposed abdul kalaam because he was a non-practising muslim..( bjp type muslim they said..)..they opposed karan singh because he was a practising hindu…and yes the ghost worshipping pratibha patil is acceptable to them..
…considering the options you have and post 9\11..in wake of quarterly terror bombings in indian metros….if the educated hindu class choses the radical n mass murderer modi(who categorises society as hindu n muslim)..over these secular n corrupt show offs who plan to categorise society as( upper caste hindus,obcs, muslim,dalis)..it should not come as a surprise to our arm-chair secular activists wailing over the utopia of india…the educated class of gujrat has proved for all its fundamentalism..more pragmatic than all of them..
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Mini can u tell us what u think of Mulayam Singh , MIM , SIMI … then we’l talk further
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May your tribe infest and breed double speed in the troubled nectar of Hindutava and decimate everything amenable to reason, sense and compassion! The future of “passionforcinema” doesn’t seem too bright.
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guys read my post no 125 .. Mini’s a freaking sociopath .that she’s a compulsive liar has also been proved before that.
also after repeated reminders, she still is not answering what i asked her ..
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@Mini what has PassionforCinema got to do with anyones personal political ideologies? You can’t expect everyone here at PFC to have one ideology? That would be foolish and would make PFC another political and cinematic cult….
I don’t understand what you are trying to say? Before that, you still are not answering any of the questions we asked? If there has to be a clarity in discussion, why don’t you answer the questions we asked of you instead of just rambling about the future of PFC?
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mini jee…the sole voice of reason in the decayingfirmament of pfc…
1. may your tribe….kya expression hai..sold on you..kasam se..(ya as if we are the tribe of muslim-baiters,riot mongerers…than you for the title nonethless..).
2. decimate everything amenable to sense,rason n compassion…waaah..as if you are the only one standing for it..
3. the future of passion for cinema does not see too bright..then what is oh so propah..miss doing here..please leave us alone…
..mini..the problem..we have with you..is not your anti-views,,but your so condescending attitude and your un necessarily pedantic way of saying them…
i have several eamples as an evidence of your double speak…
1. you first said u doon’t like rdb..all was fine till then..had you held on to your views..but on being attacked..you camoflague,circumvent..n say i did not say that..
2. many critiques of anurag kashyap came..many reviewers said the movie was bizarre,incomprehensible..but you wid your childish arrogance go on making statements like these..on being attacked .when anurag says david lynch supports him n has watched his films…you say had it not been better if david lynch himself would had said that…(yeh bhi theek hai..)..but no you go on and just to make a point suggest to another commentator..why not you write to david lynch to check veracity of anurag’s statement…this shows to what levels you can stoop to justify your ego..
3. you make a statement that k jo n slb have better craft than anurag kashyap..some pfc fanatics attack you..it was alright if u had hold on to ur arguments..but then you go about making inane statements like..let us appoint a jury of reviewers (david lynch ) included to judge who is better slb or ak…wtf is that..again shows more than holding and explaining your beliefs..you hold on to youe ego..
4. you made many points on gujrat..many were correct ones….but in between the razzmatazz of floozy english…and oh so propah attitude..
…the problem as your last statement shows..is with you..for..
a.. inconsistency..n hiding your arguments wid play of words..rdb..
b.. resortin to childish ways to defend your argument..like why not write to david lynch to verify anurag kashyap’s claim, why not appoint a jury of reviewers (david lynch )included to see who has a better craft slb or ak..
c. your..oh so condescending attitude..
..we at pfc are passionate students of cinema,friends,buddies..in passion we are often wrong not logical..we attack each other then embrace each other..then move on..but last we need is a teacher to lecture us on our attitude n fate..
..kabir probably had you in mind when he said this…
bura jo dekhan main chala..
bura na milya koi…
jo mann dekha aapna…
mujhse bura na koi…
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i have seen ppl who dislike modi, even hate him .. thats okay .. ppl have their reasons .. the author Ramu himself seesms to be a nice person .
But this Mini Randawa is different .
Notice her viscious and venomous hatred. i can almost imagine her bloodshot eyes and hissing tongue as she writes. Something’s fishy here ..
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Poor Kabir – a Muslim! Or a Hindu B…..d!
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Fortunately or Unfortunately, i was there in Amdavad during both the Earthquake and Riots where i was then studying Design(!).
I remember on the day of the earthquake, we students had all collected some clothes, medicines and were on our way to Maninagar hospital for any help we could do, this was just perhaps 2-3 hours after the earthquake… while we were on our way to the hospital, we were so surprised and glad to see RSS cadets, everywhere helping people out of debris, collecting medicines, arranging for blood donors and obviously no one was asking anyone about the religion of the donors or the needy…
A year later, we were holed up atop one of our hostel terrace, all the students inside one hostel building, each one of us scared shitless when we heard the screams of ‘hey ram’, ‘hey ram’, battering of sheds, looting houses.. it was hard to believe that it was perhaps the same people who we saw during the earthquake and the riots…
Gujarat, as India, is not one entity or group of people who can be generalized and called as ‘fundamentalists’ or ’secularists’.
I remember our trips to localities in Amdavad, Juhapura, Behrampura, where (much before Godhra), we would be frightened to venture out… the cold, almost sinister stares of the Rickshaw guys or the guys standing near the galla. I would be lying if i said that crossing The Bridges out of the Old City was on most times not followed by a sigh of relief…
We used to always have this feeling in Amdavad that a lot of Gujaratis used to have a simmering discontent/anger towards the Muslims, i thought it was also because of similar cold/sinister experiences one used to encounter in the Old City areas. Iam not justifying the Riots nor am i attributing these as the reasons for it, that would be naive. Iam just trying to put forth the contradictions of the place and people.
Even I have had some great interactions with the Muslims of the Old City and iam not trying to paint them all in one hue, but the majority of our experiences there used to be always tinged with a sense of un-belonging.
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yeah… and also it was bloody irritating to watch the recent Gujarat election coverage on ndtv, barkha dutt and prannoy roy are two of the most condescending newsperson in this country… it was disgusting to watch as barkha dutt again and again kept asking every bjp spokesperson that ‘now that you’ve won the election, will you reach out to the other community and apologize’, iam like what the fuck!!! i mean, this guy Modi, for whatever he is, has won a free, fair and democratic election! and you guys are hell bent on asking him about his reactions towards Muslims as if that was the be-all and end-all of every fucking issue!
Why don’t these guys talk about ‘polarization’ when Mayawati wins or how come they don’t question whether Mayawati has actually gradually built up this whole notion of fear in so-called ‘lower-caste’ strata of UP?
This is not to say that Modi is an angel or a demon, but some how the media and our band of ’secularists’ seem to make him out to be Hitler, Gaddafi, Musharraf… by the same yard-stick they are also implying that people who are voting him back to power, three times in a row, are also followers of such totalitarian dictatorship.
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Well, it is fashion these days by these page 3 types to hate Modi….You gotta say “Modi!!! How horrible!!” to sound cool! Has anyone heard about this thing called Herd Mentality?
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@macchar
why do you think of it as a debate of ‘us’ vs. ‘them’?
that is the root cause of problem and hatred amongst people everywhere in the world.
you say muslims wanted a different country, muslim raiders plundered many temples, malaysia destroyed temples, taliban destroyed bamiyan, etc.
muslim league wanted a different country and muslims wanted a different country is something different. remember more muslims chose to remain in india than to leave.
by the same yardstick, the sikhs wanted a different country, the nagas, the assamese, the sikkimese, the kashmiris, the tamils want a different country too. heck, even the village nandigram wants a different country.
malaysia govt. or taliban govt’s actions do not equal the actions of ‘muslims’. taliban was a hated govt. in afghanistan.
u say, So what does India get in return? Dawood Ibrahim
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@Anupam
You are getting more & more articulate by each passing comment. I’m impressed.
@Mini
I have to agree with Anupam & others that you are avoiding their very legit answers. Hence losing the debate. You came across as a highly intelligent person with amazing knowledge of indian Music. But to have a fair arguement you gotta come down from your high chair of “Intellectual bullshit”. Your attitude does seem condescending. I’m as liberal as the next guy. And hence wish you would answer them intelligently instead of making sly remarks about Kabir.
Meanwhile my fellow PFCs
Lets celebrate the biggest festival of another sinister religion – Chritianity by listening to this carol song
http://hypem.com/track/449510
…..
I just cam back from the biggest midnight mass in LA. Someone very creepy came all the way from ROME. Man religion is the most boring thing ever. And everyone look so sad. All the preachers reminded me of Darth Vader.
GOD SAVE ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!
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@anupam…thats what u call a one tight slap..mtv style. thnx a ton for this one.was reading evrything by so called mini or mini-me or whoever he/she is. still cant understand her/his problem. wish him/her all the best and some sanity!!!
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KJ
Can’t agree with you more my friend.
Esp after a creepy night of Midnight Mass with 4000 other religious people.
GOD SAVE ME FROM YOUR FOLLOWERS!
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@Prashant
what makes you think that? I was just trying to be polite but thanks for letting me know that there is no place for politeness on PFC, I was under the wrong impression because people here have iterated so many times that they are here to argue and at the same time respect other peoples’ opinion.
As to why do i care? hmmmn….that a difficult one! I am not sure about that, like so many other things (as you indicate) :P :P
may be something to do with my genes or may be I have too much free time!!!
@Filmibhai
jab tak you wait for answers from Mini, why don’t you answer my questions?
@Machchar
“Okay, what if India asks a simple question? Take Kashmir, but also take all the Muslims of India along?”
Looks like we didn’t learn enough from one partition.
@Anupam
“Were Hindus and Muslims and Sikhs always at war with one another when there was no British rule, when there was no English face seen there? We have chapter and verse given to us by Hindu historians and by Muslim historians to say that we were living in comparative peace even then. And Hindus and Muslims in the villages are not even today quarreling. In those days they were not known to quarrel at all. The late Maulana Muhammad Ali often used to tell me, and he was himself a bit of an historian. He said :
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My remark about Kabir is not sly. Sad that you saw it this way. It reflects the major contradiction of our history in the second millenium. Kabir was born a Hindu to a high caste woman – at least that’s what the myth is. He was brought up by a low caste Muslim parents. All his life, Kabir’s is a deeply resentful questioning of this legitimacy. The ‘bastard’ in this example is differently valorised. It is a metaphor – an unfortunate one – of our troubled histories.
The Muslims in India did not come from outside. They converted to Islam. Only a very small percntage of this conversion was under duress. The bulk of those who converted to Islam were people on the margins repressed for centuries and denied legitimate means to express their anxieties, dreams and desires. They were lured away by the vision of freedom which the Sufis offered.
You may agree with the Anupams, Prashants and Phoenixnus and the filmbhais and declare them to be victors as some sort of a refree. I would much rather be vanquished under your prejudicial gaze than seek legitimation of my position from you. For me, the person who made a lot more sense was KJ – much as I disagree with his views on cinema.
These people are haunted by the images of Muslim chasing terrified Hindus waving unsheathed swords in Hyderabad and elsewhere. I wish they had followed the trail of blood which Advani’s Rath Yatra so ceremoniously ushered in and legitimised. There are two faces to violence in our land like in ‘your’ land – ours is legitimate theirs isn’t.
If only you had seen Anand Patwardhan’s Ram Ke Naam or Ranjani Mazumdar’s Kiska Dharm Kiska Desh. I am sure you have. But have you? Ask the Sikhs who suffered in Delhi and elsewhere in 1984? Ask them who was flashing naked swords. And ask them, besides, if those joining them in their sly anti-Sikh campaign were not indeed a substantial number of the RSSites. You will come to staggering revelations.
If all these people feel impassioned about Anurag Kashyap’s work, then one would have to rethink a lot of things: How is it that his cinema pleases both – ‘them’ and ‘us’? This ‘them’ and ‘us’ is not some easily resolvable, empty politics. It comes into harkat everytime you place the camera for a shot. If you think it is ok to let communal comments to pass in the name of blogging, what is there left to say?
BTW, the role you assign to me is a very interesting one. You seem to be saying: ‘You are OK. Why don’t you just confine yourself to commenting on music?’ It is a bit like what they used to say in not too distant a past about women: ‘Darling, you are so naturally born to the kitchen space! Why don’t you just stay there and dazzle our lttle world each passing day!”
I hope you know my answer!
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168 Neeraja
‘jab tak you wait for answers from Mini, why don
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@ 171
As a true patriot, it would be in consonance with your sacred duty to report a Pakistani intruder to RAW! You may be very fulsomely rewarded for your ‘legitimate’ pains!
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@K J:
I guess you never got my point. Also thanks for the tit bit from BF. You guys never seem to understand right? In a perfect world, there should be no religion. Religion is the opium of the masses (Karl Marx).
So now we don’t have a perfect world, lets try to live in these imperfect situations. Okay, we agree for all the blah blah reasons for the hatred to exist today.
But hatred exists and there is no point being an utopian idealist. People have always fought right from the beginning of mankind and will continue to fight. Come what may and in spite lectures Rakesh Maria from Black Friday gives. But what we are all fighting today is against senseless killing. Idiotic wars.
I don’t want to delve into global issues as its a totally different topic and not relevant to the discussion here. Let’s look at the Micro issues here before talking at Macro levels.
The point is Modi. The point is Muslims in India. Instead of being a pseudo-secularist, just think for a second that maybe the issue is really dangerous that might change the future?
When the Mughals came to India first, they were very clear. They wanted to capture and control India. For that, they wanted to test waters and entered our country as Merchants. Same with the British. Some of our country men did sense the danger and tried to warn others. But we have many famous Indians like K J who said “Look at the bigger picture, they are also humans blah blah, we must respect other religions, they mean no harm, they are just here to do business etc etc”….Look what happened. We lived as SLAVES for centuries!!
DO YOU WANT TO BECOME A SLAVE AGAIN??
Yes! You might not see it now, but 50 years from now, things can drastically change! India can come under the control of Islamic militants! WHY NOT? If people like you refuse to identify the danger, then it is very much possible.
We never saw them as Us Vs. Them. They do. If they want to become a part of our country, they first should agree to follow a common civil code. Not demand a separate set of rules for them.
If a Muslim boy marries a Hindu girl, their religion is okay with it. If a Hindu boy marries a Muslim girl, she is banished from her society. Is this what Us Vs Them are you talking about?
I was in a Barber shop once….The TV was on and a movie started. Suddenly the barber switched off the Television. I was surprised. I asked him why did he do that…He said he will start in a minute. I was further surprised. I prodded him further and he said that that particular movie, before the titles, there was a Hindu religious song where they show the banner name and it is haraam for them to play such stuff in their shop.
I was like WTF!!! You people make us here your Azaan on your loudspeakers, but a small devotional tune on TV is Haraam??
K J….Incidents like these create the chasm…Things like these create the Us Vs. Them divide. Hindus by nature are loving and all encompassing. But you have to understand. Our silence is now being construed as weakness. All I am saying is be strong and don’t take nonsense. I am not asking for an all out war. There will be peace only when two sides are equally strong. In our effort to appease and look moderate, let us not look weak. The other side will mistake it for weakness.
Whether you like it or not, “Us and “Them” will always remain. But whether you want it to be “Us Vs. Them” or “Us & Them” depends on how you want to stand up to your own identity.
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haha…Mini, you really think these people don’t know about all this? But, you see, those were as they call it ‘reactions’. I remember some Sadhuji on tv saying ‘reaction to hoga hi, Newton ka sidhhant hai!’, after Godhra.
waise, in my opinion, you seem to be reading too much into that ‘Why don
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just a general statement guys
if people notice, the Intelligence personnel always tend to have right-wing leanings .. case in point M.K. Dhar , B Raman. prominent Intelligence personnel.
This is because these people know in depth and great detail who is trying to f$%k with the country (numerous muslim groups frm within and outside india) and who are their patrons poitical parties (congress, Samajwadi party, MIM etc) . also they know which are the real nationalist groups . MK Dhar never hid his pro-rss leanings and B Raman is also on the same side (his articles will give u an idea).
the media does a good job of brainwashing us naive people into believing the opposite. till a couple of years back i wudve frowned at Modi’s name .. but gradually i realised who was what.
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@Mini: Mini, If there is a Pakistani intruder, we would report him/her to either CBI or Local law enforcement agencies, not RAW :D
But I guess Pakistanis don’t know anything apart from RAW….In fact, most of the Indians know more about ISI than RAW…You seem to know a lot about RAW too ;) I definitely smell….ummmmm….goat shit here!
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pseudo-secularism, politically correctness, the past, the rest of shite, intellectually stimulating, all muddled up, you’re wrong, i am right, no, you’re right, i’m wrong, no, you’re fuckin’ wrong, i’m fuckin’ right. so whose right to be wrong or wrong to be right. you’re dumb, no, i am clever. you did that to us, we did this to you. no, hang on, i hear khuda, no, i hear bhagwan, no, i hear God, no, i hear Homer Simpson, no, i hear Honhaar Goonda saying……. did you here it, no, you’re deaf, then.
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Well, we got another Congresswadi amidst us! Vote for Honhaar Goonda!! Vote for Honhaar Goonda!! Garibi Hatao!! Honhaar Goonda ko vote daalo!
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i ain’t no congresswadi – where did i say i was? in fact, read my earlier posts, and you will say i am against congress. ’sides, i have me own party, maan.
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‘So now we don
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@Filmibhai
you didn’t really expect me to confirm to what you said because you gave me examples of Aurangzeb, Zia-ul-haq and Taliban? I already knew them, my friend.
I did research a bit about it and still didn’t find solid evidences that music was/is haram in Islam.
We choose to believe different things, lets just leave it at that.
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yes macchar, i do agree with karl marx on that statement.
but i did get what your point was. but there is always a tendency in people to name someone as an idealist. but does that make other people practical?
you mean to say: agreed, hatred is bad, but since we are living in the real world, we hate and hence any action borne out of hatred will exist and so be it, it does not matter to us…..
but right since the beginning of mankind, murder, theft, rape etc. have happened, so let’s turn a blind eye to that too?
why blame mughals? india as a country has always been under some rule or the other except for the last 60 years. heck, even hindus were not the original occupants of india. just that they are the first amongst those who remain.
and about your point on terrorism, just tell me, how many people who were killed in the gujarat riots terrorists? do you think things like gujarat deter the terrorists or only falsely allows them to legitimize their ‘jehad’?
the gujarat incident is now used as a reference by the global islamic terrorist as an example of the ‘injustice’ done to the muslims. just as the israel-palestine conflict has been used to fuel religious war everywhere in the world.
and one thing, what right would one retain to claim a moral superiority over another person if he also stoops down to that person’s level?
the kashmir conflict when it started out was a genuine conflict. when the last three princely states remained (hyderabad, junagarh, kashmir) the indian army stormed hyderabad to capture it. the muslim king of junagarh struck a deal with pak to annex the state to pak before he was overthrown in a rebellion by the hindu majority of junagarh. the king was handed over to the indian army and junagarh became a part of india. in kashmir the hindu king decided to annex the state to india amongst heavily divided opinion in the state. it was then decided in the UN charter that the right to plebiscite be offered to the people of kashmir which was outrightly rejected by india as no force had been used in kashmir during the process of annexation.
why i am stating this? as you can tell this is a point of dispute easily. and india received very little support on the international front those days. but look at the situation now. the international opinion has begun to favour india due to it’s human rights record and pakistan’s lack of it and the growth of terrorism in india funded by pak.
so u can see that hatred and retaliation are not the only options.
u hate the barber for doing what he did. i’d hate him too. but if u begin doing it under the garb of tit for tat? what difference does that make then whose side the fundamentalism is coming from?
it is a somewhat silly argument to make that ‘we hate them because they hate us.’ everyone can use that argument. and the thing u talked about dirty muslim colonies. i am sure u know of the fact that how many muslims are allowed to live in our localities?
by the way, i am totally, totally for a uniform civil code. but the pseudo secularism or secularism is from the congress. not from people like me.
because i don’t believe in secularism.
and because equality is not an idealogy, it is a birthright.
but if u see, the argument i made in the previous post is not restricted to hindus. i could use the same argument against a fundamentalist muslim, or any fanatic for that matter.
that is what is called truth. that is what we need to make our society more ideal, if not ideal.
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@honhaar goonda
haha!! great way to put forward the hypocrisy sirjee! salute!
and macchar, if u think muslims destroyed hindu monuments. let’s do one thing. let’s meet up in agra and blow the taj mahal to smithereens. now THAT will teach them mullas a lesson and show them our solidarity. what ultimate statement we will make na? that we are willing to give up our national pride in order to bring solidarity among hindus. wotsay?
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folks, first of all read this beautiful piece( which u might hv read about islam by thomas l. friedman)
link..
http://richarddawkins.net/article,1372,n,n
KJ..
.makes a pertinent point here…the rise and fall of a religion depends upon leaders it elects..and that is the problem with islam today..most of the leaders they have today..are much bigger radicals than modi ever will be…and at the same time engage wid fanatical elements and do nothing for modernisation of the common muslim…(modi shares many traits with them but he also believes in empowerment to such an extent that his relations wid rss n vhp got strained..)
..take example:
1.secular parties go crazy over modi…but there is conspiratorial silence over simi,mim..and the group in assam…(that is these parties are fanning radical fires of radical muslim leaders..)
2. in most states “secular parties” are garnering votes by fracturing hindu society into castes n subcastes..(obc,mbc,sc,st,regional.)..at the same time doing nothing for their development..
3. secular leaders know that modernisation of muslims begin wid education..n modernisation of madarsas…but wait that might aggravate the fanatic muslims..so what they do ..they simply propose a simplistic measure like reservation in jobs for muslims..(which would hardly benefit 0.0005%)of muslims as a token of love…compare this with modi who imposed fines on 1,00,000 farmers in gujrat on stealing electricity in last 6 months at eve of elections despite advices against same by his coterie of ministers…development n empowerment is serious business…
..i have no love lost wid modi he is a radical wid blood on his hands who can go wrong anytime, but he believes in development..but give me an able leader to compare with….i will select sheila dixit( congrss.delhi) any day over modi…i will select nitish kumar anyday over him..
…people are tired of the hypocrisy practised by our secular parties…while they talk of lofty ideals..what they do everyday is induce micro-fractures in hindu socirty n perverted fanning of muslim fanatic fires…
but when they chose to practise what they preach wid development agenda..they win..sheila dixit of congress has won two times continuously in delhi..how about them…give me her over modi anyday..
@neeraja…
no..there was always a strained peace between hindus n muslims..you.in last 5 years hindus n muslims have not quarelled in gujrat does not mean all is well…there is a history of violence n trauma in last 1000 years of hinduism, it was our black period…you may want to wish it away..but it is not possible to erase it..but using it to invoke religious fires..to break babri masjid is wrong…and i am all with you for it..
p.s. i am a big fan of richard dawkins..if u folks can get his god delusion..devour it as soon as possible,,,wonderful read..you can download it as free ebook on esnips or rapidshare..
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anupam, totally and completely agree with you.
@filmibhai
idealism is not that bad after all. raja ram mohun roy was an idealist in his day. now he is the reason why we people are able to point fingers at radical islamists. imagine what we would have been able to say if practices like sati, child marriage, denial of right of property to daughters were still as socially acceptable as they were in those days.
my point, if u strive for ideals, there ‘might’ be a change, if u don’t strive for them, there will definitely not be a change.
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I’ve been reading each and every response.
And I believe each every response is most valuable.
BUT BUT BUT … I’m troubled in the manner in which some of you’re trying to brow-beat and bully the others.
I think it is in bad taste.
Again the Constitution of India while quoting John Stuart Mill (on LIBERTY) says something VERY important
“If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind.”
Hmm.
Unfortunately, as some of you have been pointing we
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..islam is in a state of ferment today..but so was christianity 1000 years back…
..while the muslim populace was deriving new formulae of algebra n rediscovering geometry…the christians were practising crusades in dark ages…
if we would have read a paper in 1000 a.d. the headlines would have been..
1. three knights in search of holy grail kill a muslim scientist reading namaaz after teaching his students a course in advanced algebra in a spanish madarsa..
2. or this…two hundred crusaders sent by england..destroy a muslim village n rape its women n break its rare pottery….
..my point is …this is a dark age for islam..as was the dark age for hinduism..( till fifty years back..)…and as was dark age of christianity…(till reanaissance..)..the least we can do to help islam..is to help itself see itself in the mirror..whereby..moderately educated muslims overpopulate the fanatical zealots…and that is why for all the cunning of musharraf..the likes of musharraf remain the only hope pakistan has in redemption of pakistan against its dogmatic..mullahs..
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well said KJ
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holy shit this is scary!
anupam, do i know u?
this is a dark age for islam..as was the dark age for hinduism..( till fifty years back..)
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@kj…
nahin..bhaiyya…kahin hum kumbh ke mele me to nahin bichad gaye the…hehe…:d
…well i am a doctor in delhi,…less chance of knowing unless you hv attended health camps in pravaah,worked in lnjp..or might hv read same article n books..n came to same conclusion…
btw..what boring things u do apart from being a cine-fanatic..?
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@KJ..and anupam is d doctor who loves to write poetry with his stethoscope…a topper all the way…school,college,state,all india.
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All this talk of “them” vs “us” is scary especially on a site that espouses secular values. We need to accept that India is a secular country and indian muslims are as much part of our society as the old remnants of the British empire- the “anglo-indians.” I think many “hindutva” sympathisers need to empathize with the fact that the “Modi” victory does scare the muslim minority. They fear that muslim baiting has now become linked somehow to patriotism. Modi has become a symbol of the “hindu nationhood.” In order to not be associated with fascist wing of the BJP that believes that the only solution to the muslim problem is to do away with them, Modi needs to reach out to the muslim minority. We have to reach beyond the backward thinking fundamentalist ideology that views polarization and destruction as the only way forward. Whether Modi will ever step up to the plate given his prime ministerial ambitions, or go the Murli Manohar Joshi way, is now the big question.
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185 @KJ
i agree idealism can change things .. but that is true for people who are willing to change .
can u change the muslim mindset . im afraid no. because that derives directly from their Quran which they are supposed to adhere to. if u cannot change the root of the ideology, dont expect a change in the person’s mindset.
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@Suzy: No one here wants to do away with Muslims. We agree and understand that they are an integral part of this country and no one wants any ethnic cleansing done here….
The only point some people are trying to make here is that Muslims have to make an effort to join the mainstream and not think themselves as someone different or superior to anyone else. For this, the educated and rich Muslims need to make a big effort. What are they doing? Just looking the other way. Did Aziz Premji do anything for the Muslims?
Out of all his hundreds of crores, did Shah Rukh Khan build a school for Muslim girls? If all the rich and progressive Muslims of this country come together, push the Mullahs aside and take control, our country will be Owner’s Pride, Neighbor’s Envy!
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@phoenixnu..thats too generous of u…i don deserve that much of praise..
@ ramu sir…
sir you are very right about opinion thing…but just that when some-body tries to put across his or her point wid a veneer of moral superiority…that people get offended…and it is for a snob …that the medium(the snob)..becomes more important than message..and that is indeed unfortunate…
when some body tries to use phrases like you folks..may your tribe.,the future of pfc aint bright..you fundamentalists..riot-mongerers.it leads not to reaction but over-reaction..n hence the bully aspect..!..if you want to convert us..make us our buddy..you can’t shove it down our throats…
..lastly..sir.you are very right when you say we live in imperfect times…
these are times when…
the people with fodder-scams on their heads go on to transform railways..so much so to be a case study in harvard.., the mass murderers go on to make honest efforts to empower their states..the people with impeccable integrity go on to do a nandigram ..the most educated n nice person leading our government..watches blindly as sycophants call the shots…
….only thing we realise sir..that labels do not stick..that people do change..some-times power dilutes the ideology of organisations and makes them more human…and in the most dogmatic of them…there is an inherent capacity for good..
what the media and our pseudo-secular folks have stuck in sir..they have just stuck a label on modi..wht they do not realise is that the power has made him more tolerant..and less dangerous..
.instead the media and our arm chair activists conveniently go on labelling him as the devil…
..what people of gujrat have just done and some of us are doing here sir is…WE ARE JUST GIVING THE DEVIL HIS DUE..
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187 Anupam
i dont agree man . it is a well known fact that Algebra and Mathematics went from India to the Arabs who then in turn passed it onto the world.
and abt that ‘ferment’ thing .. i believe it has always been in a state of ferment . the area from arab lands to afghanistan to present NWFP (in pakistan) was once home to a thriving Budhhist civilization . great centres of learning were established (Taxila) where scholars frm far off places came to study. u cant find trace of that civilization today. the last Bamiyan Buddhas got bombed to hell recently. they all got plundered and murdered by the merciless armies emanating from Arabia. loot of the Somnath temple (17 times , no less), Ghazni’s multiple attacks on India, Abdali’s maruding armies , the Mongoloid muslim armies led by Changez Khan who left behing mountains of skulls wherever they passed , Aurangzeb’s tyrannical legacy. the partition . and it continues to date.
the western world talks only of one Jew holocaust .. it doesnt talk about the series of holocausts in this part of the world.
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@194..sahi kaha machhar bhai…the only university built exclusively for modern education for muslims..was amu..n it was built in 1884…!..rich muslims are sleeping on the pillows full of dollars..while our diabolical politicians instead of modernizing madarsas…engage their mullahs…so much so for their secular credentials…!!
…no doubt..the muslim society is caught in a time warp..!
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…sorry boss..they did take some ideas but definitely all of them..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_mathematics
i am saying just that..even rediscovering a concept..takes some love of knowledge aint it..
while i would fiercely contest ur claim that muslims made no contri to world of science,mathematics n art…urdu for me is the most beautiful language in this world…read the last mughal by wiliam dalrymple to understand exotic patronage given to arts..even when mughal empire was counting its last breaths..
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Suzy – Muslims are not the only ones. There have been three different reports from Gujarat, Orissa and Madhya Pradesh in which Christians have been the targets of Sanghi violence:
1. BROTHER Ramesh, 33, lies on a hospital bed in Vadodara, four fingers of his right hand amputated. This Catholic priest from Tamil Nadu was allegedly attacked by activists near Kwant, a tribal town in Vadodara six days ago, as reported by The Indian Express on December 21. His assailants are still absconding but the police have now registered an FIR under Section 37 of the Bombay Police Act against the injured priest for “unlawful assembly” in a village he had gone to enact a “public awareness” play.
Same is the plight of Sister Manjula Tuscano, a missionary in her late 20s, who was part of Ramesh’s group. She was allegedly beaten up, robbed and chased by the assailants. The police did not visit her after the incident but she is now an accused as well. The Kwant police have also registered an FIR against her, along with the 18 oth ers, for “being part of an assembly of more than five persons,” thereby violating prohibitory orders clamped in the wake of elections. ft
2. Curfew has been imposed in several towns in Kondhmal district of Orissa following attacks on churches.
At least a dozen churches, some of them built in thatched structures, were attacked by a mob allegedly led by some VHP activists.
3. There are reports from Bhopal as well of Bajrangis threatening to disrupt Christmas celebrations.
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‘urdu for me is the most beautiful language in this world’
this i will not contest .. i know some urdu
though i would also like to point out that arabic language (whose subsequent mixing with hindustani language resulted in urdu) existed beore islam so its not a religious thing , i think.
ps- didnt read the longish article in wikipedia but generally wikipedia isnt a very reliable site.. coz its content is submitted/edited by users like us.
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Forgot to mention that these are reports from today.
On a lighter note, I have this irrepressible desire to congratulate both Jaya and Ajay Mahajan at Pravaah for the erudite cadres they are sending out to work.
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Mini Randawa .. i asked u something in post 154. im asking again.
can u tell us what u think of Mulayam Singh , MIM , SIMI ?
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I am amazed to read the views of some people
Muslims are going to take over india in 50 years? I mean what kind of strong stuff are you smoking? This kind of paranoid delusional thinking is exactly what the hindutva brigade feeds into to advance their hatemongering ideology.
By and large, why is it that the vast majority of indian muslims are NOT part of the the global jehadist movement? Has anyone given any thought to that?
And at a basic existential level , the poorest muslims ( and hindus) are trying to survive on a day to day basis dealing with issues of roti kapda makan, rather than hatching up conspiracies to “TAKE OVER” india ( rolls eyes)
Take off your blinkers and look at the ground reality
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ofcourse and in Mini’s favourite islamic countries (nearest eg Pakisan), Christians minorities are torched to death , churches vandalized, their girls abducted, stoned , forced to convert (goes true for the hindu minorities too)
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‘By and large, why is it that the vast majority of indian muslims are NOT part of the the global jehadist movement? Has anyone given any thought to that?’
i agree . indian muslims have been well intergrated compared in other countries .
but i suggest u take a trip down south .. things have changed a LOT . the Kafeel Ahmads and the Bilals (recent hyderabad bombings mastermind) are just the tip of iceberg.
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hmm seems i dropped in late here, anyway here are my 2 cents or do paise.
I am not a Muslim hater, some of my closest buddies are Muslims, nor am i a big admirer of Mr.Modi and dont even have any liking for RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena. So now i have given the disclaimer, i hope i can put out my views.
Narendra Modi has won and will keep winning elections for donkey’s years, as long as the Congress keeps on proppping up totally ineffectual leaders. Most of the Congress leaders in Gujarat are a bunch of hopeless ineffectual jokers, totally crooked and corrupt to the core. No sensible person on earth would even think of entrusting the leadership of the state to them. Modi needs a strong opposition in Gujarat, there is none. And neither do i expect Signora Sonia to even develop one, busy as she is promoting her Prince Charming son Rahul Gandhi. So after WB, TN, UP, Bihar, this is another state the Congress can kiss goodbye.
2) As long as we keep following the sham secularism of appeasing Mullahs and Moulvis, we will forever have the Togadias. No Sane Hindu would support Togadia’s rantings, nor the Bajrang Dal’s goon squad tactics. But every time in the name of secularism, the so called secular parties go and keep licking the ass of every fundamentalist Mullah, or falling at their feet, even some one who has no affinity for the RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal, would automatically gravitate to them.
ARE THE SECULAR PARTIES AND THEIR LIBERAL SCUMBAGS IN THE MEDIA LISTENING?
FOR HEAVENS SAKE ASSHOLES PRACTICE GENUINE SECULARISM, SECULARISM DOES NOT MEAN PAMPERING BACKWARD LOOKING MUSLIM LEADERS, NOR DOES SECULARISM MEAN MINORITY EXTREMISM.
The Da Vinci Code movie was not banned in Catholic Italy, nor in Latin America, which is more catholic than Italy, but our great Governments decided to ban the movie, just to please some 3rd rate Christian leaders. The Pope does not object to screening the movie, though he does not agree, but our Hon Min Priya Ranjan Dasmunshi is holier than the Pope i guess. If this is secularism, i dont want it.
Secularism in our country is today a dirty word, because it has become associated with minority appeasament or more specifically kow towing to totally backward looking leaders. Who benefits? Not the ordinary Muslims, who remain as backward as ever, because these so called representatives of Muslims, care a fig about their education or employment.
The RSS/VHP and co are happy, because every time in the name of secularism, the leaders prostrate before another rabid mad dog Mullah or indulge in some other vote bank gimmick, they say “Look we told u, this is what secularism means”. But neither our leaders nor all those liberal breast beaters nor those bunch of moronic jokers masquearading as intellectuals would ever accept it.
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I am a normal citizen of India, working hard, and for me i dont discriminate on basis of religion when it comes to choosing friends. But these kind of gimmicks have made me loose faith in secularism totally.
I dont have anything against Muslims or Christians, but i do hate those fatwa issuing Mullahs or those proselytzing missionaries who believe that only Christians go to heaven. I do hate it when the Govt begs, bows, grovels and scrapes in front of them.
And the result every time some one issues secular sermons, they are taking with a pinch of salt. Secularism and tolerance r not developed by candle light marches, TV ads, liberal breast beating or ranting in newspapers or blogs. The only way secularism can be made to work, is understanding the fact that there are basic differences between religions and trying to come up with a common ground.But then its easier to indulge in gimmicks i guess.
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Mini:
I agree that the insecurity is felt by many other minority groups besides the Muslims. We are in this together and so instead of finger pointing, we should put our collective heads together to problem solve. Machar ji, I agree that rich Muslims (and Hindus)should create progressive muslim schools that promote women’s education and the doing away with archaic traditions such as the wearing of the hijab. I loved it when the French tried to insist that school children of all faiths not be allowed to wear a head covering. If people want to live in a progressive society then they should be willing to follow the rules of that society. I do not agree that there should be a different set of rules for different groups-be it marriage laws or the education of young children. But when we start talking of how “they” should should be doing this and that to assimilate in our socity, then we are not being inclusive.
I think the problem in our country is that many progressive/forward thinking people feel that politics is too dirty to be part of. So then deal-makers (read:ex IMF/IFC/WB types like Manmohan Singh), crooks, or vain-glorious populists take over and lead in the name of the majority. Of course, the other option is to wait and allow India to self destruct, which it will if nothing is done to correct fundamental contradictions in our society.
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you can hate modi , but u cant write him off. he has came abck on u r face on u with a bang.there is clear hindu muslim divide in this country, in every city the two live seperately in different parts divided by walls , roads and thoughts.
This divide is no made by BJP, it is the making of congress and its secularist ideas of 50 yrs which has made this country a mess.BJP is only encashing on the insecurity of hindus.you people shud go and visit the small towns and cities and see how people feel abt religion and shud stop this intrepreation from the AC Drawing rooms and TV STUDIOS. Go and vist all the dingy bylanes of bhindi bazaar in mumbai or old delhi , seelampur in delhi and roam freely there and then come and talk abt all these things.
there is problem with muslims , they dont wana change with changing times. thats why they are having this clash of thoughts.there religious thoughts are too rigid and represents 11th century. you see any muslim country how gud they have done on science front. any nobel laurates or highly qualified scientist from these countries, very few. problem is mindset of people about each other , hindus have a mindset abt muslims and same with them. how much hue and cry one can make in media , but these prejudices are there and no one is addressing the core of them , superficial treatment is done.
one last thing , more u hate modi more powerful he will become . you have seen that in this election and if these goes on it will happen again also.
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@ Saad from Vadodara, please tell us what you think about Modi, Khul Kay. Need your inputs.
@Suzy
I totally agree.
Problem solving is the urgent need of the hour.
What can an individual do?
This should be our focus in 2008, isn’t it?
Before that shouldn’t we clear the air about
Who is a Hindu?
Who is an Indian?
What is India?
How far in History do we want to go to, to avenge?
What rights should Minorities enjoy? If at all.
What is wrong with political parties?Leaders?
Should we become a Hindu Rashtra?
Should we ban all Religions?
Can we make a difference?
As individuals?
Instead of these drawing room/chat room conversations which are no doubt invigorating and stimulating, we should use our collective talents and brains and goodwill to carve a better future.
Especially since we do not like the status quo.
@Machchar you right about education,
about elite Muslims shirking their duty and allowing the mullahs to take over the ummah.
So we leave them to the mullahs then?
Becoz ‘they’ are muslims and hence its ‘their’ responsibility?
To start with, I would love to set up a school in the Old City of Charminar, will you join me?
It does not take much to do it.
And your best friend who is a Muslim can teach there.
Before that I have a few incidents to relate:
When Indira Gandhi was shot we were living in Coimbatore, Sikh Truck Drivers were not spared even there. I remember thanking my stars that I was not a Sardarni.
When Rajiv Gandhi was killed I was traveling by train to Delhi , we had to lie about the Tamilians sitting in our compartment, again Thank God I was not Tamil, how lucky for me!!
When I go to old city in Charminar to shop, I dont wear a bindi, in case there are riots, can pass of as a Muslim na….
And I made sure I displayed the Bindi prominently
when I got caught in an almost riot like situation during Babri Masjid.
Oh! And what if I wore only Salwars post 9/11 to show my solidarity with the muslims,
in DC no one knows the difference or cares.
I am also glad that my parents were smart enough to be born in a ‘High Caste’ household and that despite being a girl I was not sold off, bartered off, married off, sent off but educated to think and apply those brains for good use [ I presume ]
Since I have been so lucky thus far I have started feeling a sense of apprehension!!
What if the next time around some Telugu Girl kills a prominent politician?
How long will I go on being thankful and lucky for the tags that are attached to me by others
[ Hindu/Telugu/Woman ],
coz sometimes I feel like none of the above,
and how long before the sins of the ‘others’ will come to haunt me and soon chase me out of my complacency?
I have been subjected to a very benign form of racism and even that hurt so much, and it was not in the US mind you [ where everyone is extra careful about how they say my name, what they wear to my functions, what they cook for me etc ]
It was in India while I living life in the North as a ‘South Indian’,I was subjected to all kinds of stereotypes and it was very enervating to correct each and every one, up till a point where one gave up.
As a woman too one faces it all the time,
trying to explain our stand,
trying to prove how good we are,
trying to fit in….
a constant battle of just surviving with dignity.
So as a woman, as someone who has an inkling of what it might be to be in a minority situation, as someone who comprehends the fear of being caught in a mob, I sincerely request all of you to start
Taking Action,
in small ways to mitigate this growing mistrust among human beings.
Which could be as simple as making friends across
religious divides to writing honest well researched articles devoid of propaganda to making a film on the riots to walking across Amritsar – Wagah to yes, even starting a Party that does not
appease Anyone to running for elections with a sincere will to change the course of history.
We are behaving like Israel suddenly, feeling victimized and unable to assert our identities, that too is justified to an extent but lets not create a Frankenstein.
Modi deserves his win if so many people elected him and no we will not ask him to apologize for
2002,
but will you assure me that the victims will get justice? Hindus AND Muslims?
Because I know someone whose father was dragged out and burnt to death in front of her eyes and she looks like a ghost.
Why do you want to know her name?
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@mini
Thanks for the gyan about the myth about Kabir’s bastardness. I didn’t know that & hence apologize for accusing you of sly. My ignorance.
And I’m not judging anyone here. I just complemented you on your knowledge of music. never did I ask you to confine yourself to just that. Infact I’m begging you to answer to the question asked. Anyways Its your right to answer or remain quite. And I respect that.
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Rahul Dholakia raised a very important question here. Does anyone know what happened with all the money that was allocated for the riot victims?
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I don’t like religion. Any of them. But there is a descending order of how i dislike them.
Christianity & Islam are right now fighting with each other for the top spot. Sometimes I can use the word HATE to describe my feeling towards these two religion. Its amazing how these born agains think. One of my colleague is a born again. He is the sweetest guy you would meet. He thinks I would go to hell because I don’t want to accept Jesus as my saviour. Last night I was at the biggest Midnight Mass in LA & man! It was creepy. All these creepy old man giving lectures on Jesus & Hope. I feel sorry for Jesus. he was such a dandy fellow.
Hinduism which is supposed to be so compassionate & all loving is also turning into a bit fascist in its reaction to what many think is “Minority Appeasing”
Hate has never been solution for Hate. No matter which religion, once religion comes to power its bad news. They are the most intolerant people. I think Vajpayee & Advani used this Hindu insecurity to topple the CONGRESS & do some development. But they couldn’t get too much away from the shackles of RSS. I really love Vajpayee. He was a cool guy who loved his drugs & loved his women.:) He loved arts too.
!CHANDU!
I don’t know what is the solution, other than taking action ourselves. I intend to do that soon. But for now I can only talk. So forgive me Kavita. I need to think & talk till I figure out what I should/can do.
I think what people like Mini are saying is that we should not become them in our reaction to their hatred/unacceptance. Everyone knows Islam happens to be the most intolerant religion. Theres no point discussing that. Lets not become like that.
And do I have to relate my experiences with rioters also to establish my credentials?
I feel we need Free Libraries for the kids. Books can save humanity. There is truth in books.
http://hypem.com/track/449510
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@ mainak
islam as it is practised by a small minority can be an intolerant religion( and there are a gazzlion sociopolitical reasons for the whole middle east situation which is DIRECTLY responsible for the resurgance of jehadism)
please dont insult the billions who follow islam by labelling them as intolerant..i am sure you have lots of acquitances/friends who are muslims, have you considered that at any time in your interactions with them? or are they to be distrusted cuz they are intolerant muslims?
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I’m not insulting tolerant people. I just don’t like intolerance.
Yes I do have friends. Very good Pakistani friends, Persian friends, Christian friends. Friend who love me dearly. Friends I love very intensely. And I do tell them their religion is fucked up. And they know it. Unless we are all drunk my dislike doesnt bother them too much. When it is a drunken arguement, then it does get serious.
I have even had screaming fights with my christian friend. Who BTW loves me more than anyone I know.
I just am not a big fan of religion. Too much blood in their hands. All in the name of a imaginary HEAVEN?
Maybe its time for the tolerant muslims to start raising their voices, if they are the majority. Thats the problem of tolerant people. They are always quite. America is being taken over by Religion. A Evangalical dude will be the main Republican Candidate this year(if not a Morman). The Democrats are always trying to be polite. They need some balls.
Atleast in our media people are still asking questions. Pranoy Roy & Barkha Dutt have every right to ask for an apology? The day we stop asking questions, we will be doomed.
You are a woman. So is Mini. Tell me something?
Why are people allowed to have 4 wives in the name of religion in a nation where the main problem happens to be population? I think this was one of the main agendas of BJP initially. But they could never enforce that Uniform Civil Code.
Maya honestly…like I said…I don’t claim to be an expert. I am looking for answers too.
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MERRY CHRISTMAS everyone!
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Kavita, Maya:
I agree that we should not be labeling people as “intolerant” simply on the basis of their religion. But intolerance has to be abohrred in all shapes and forms- be it jewish, muslim, christian, or hindu. There should also be one set of universal values that we should be able to uphold as a “civilized society. This should include right to education, life, property etc for all people big and small, regardless of gender or national identity/affliation. We should be able to crticize the Godhra riots, the jihadi violence in Kashmir and the Israelis atrocities in Lebanon, with equal fervor.
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@mainak:
wrt free libraries : http://www.roomtoread.org/
To do something while you are thinking on what to do: http://www.kiva.org/
and regards Polygamy, pls how many Muslims actually have 4 wives is something we should take a census on.
)
It was acceptable/approved within a certain context and historic backdrop, we can’t hold that against all Muslims.
I mean what do I say when Hindus are accused of Sati and Bride Burning?
ps: and if we are afraid of being outnumbered, lets all start having more children
from http://www.answering-christianity.com/polygamy.htm
1- The Noble Verses:
Marriage from multiple women in Islam might not be allowed for those who might result in damaging the society with their marriage by bringing more illiterate, poor, and in many cases starving children to the society.
Let us look at Noble Verse 4:3 “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.”
Notice how Allah Almighty allowed polygamy only for helping the orphans (more women are needed to take care of the Muslims’ and infidels’ orphans after every battle.) Notice also how Allah Almighty ordered the men to be either fair to their wives or else to never marry more than one wife.
Let us look at Noble Verse 4:129 “Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire: But turn not away (from a woman) altogether, so as to leave her (as it were) hanging (in the air). If ye come to a friendly understanding, and practise self-restraint, God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.” Here we clearly see that Allah Almighty tells men that they will never be fair to their wives.
Let us see why then Allah Almighty temporarily ordered polygamy but yet very highly discouraged it, and why I personally believe from the Noble Quran that polygamy should not be allowed today to most Muslim men in the Muslim world.
2- What was the purpose of the Noble Verse 4:3?
Noble Verse 4:3 was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him in Madina after he migrated to it from Mecca and established an Islamic state there right after the battle of Uhud in which the Muslims not only had lost badly against the Pagans, but also suffered a dramatic decrease in the number of Muslim men. The Muslim men before that battle were approximately 700. They became only 400 after the battle. This loss had left so many Muslim women (1) Widows, and (2) Not able to get married if they were single.
To make matters even worse, the Muslims had faced yet another battle against the Pagans in Mecca and its neighboring tribes who wanted to attack the Muslims in Madina to finish off Islam once and for all, and by the Jews and the Christians in Madina who betrayed the Muslims in the “battle of Trench” after signing a defense treaty with Muhammad peace be upon him against the Pagans.
All praise due to Allah Almighty. With Allah’s Will and Mercy, the Muslims had miraculously won the battle against the Pagans of Mecca and drove them back to where they came from, and then attacked the Jews and the Christians who betrayed the defense treaty and kicked those hypocrites out of Madina forever!
These continuous battles against the Muslims were very costly in terms of Muslim men’s lives. The women had to be taken care of one way or another. For this reason, Allah Almighty had revealed the Noble Verse 4:3 to Muhammad peace be upon him to solve the social problems that the Muslims were facing. That is why at the very beginning of the Noble Verse 4:3 we see Allah Almighty setting a conditional clause for Orphans “If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans…(4:3).” This Noble Verse came down for the purpose of protecting the Orphans and to increase the number of the Muslims by allowing the men to marry multiple wives (preferably from the grown Orphans at that time), up to four wives only. The purpose was absolutely not for man’s sexual pleasure nor privilege, nor was it to support man’s personal ego. It was revealed to solve a major social problem to prevent major sins such as illegal sex and prostitution.
Polygamy is not encouraged in the Noble Quran, nor Allah Almighty had allowed it because He really liked it. He was clearly careful to highly discourage polygamy to men by telling them “but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one…(4:3)” which clearly orders men to either be fair or to not marry at all, despite the fact that we lost many men, Allah Almighty still didn’t want polygamy to really take place. That’s why He later told men “Ye are never able to be fair and just as between women, even if it is your ardent desire…(4:129)” which clearly nullifies the excuse that He gave them to practice polygamy. Is this a contradiction then? Absolutely not!. It clearly proves that when Allah Almighty allowed polygamy, He only allowed it because we (the Muslims) had an emergency; we lost almost half of our men if not even more. When Islam later became much stronger and Muslims defeated the infidels in the continues battles that were forced upon them (the Muslims), Allah Almighty nullified the excuse that he gave to men to practice polygamy, which would then lead to prohibiting polygamy altogether.
The way I read Noble Verse 4:3 is as follows:
Allah Almighty ordered us to take care of the Orphans in our Islamic society (Noble Verses 2:177, 2:215, 2:220 and much more). He then commands us that if we fear that we will not be able to provide enough support for the too much Orphans in our society (especially after the battle of Uhud where more than half of the Muslim men were lost), then marry up to four of them to provide a social balance between men and women. But if a person feels that he can’t handle multiple women, then one is just fine.
That’s really all there is to it. Please read the Noble Verse again and compare it to my brief explanation above:
“If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (The Noble Quran, 4:3)”
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@mainak: polygamy in Islam . interesting take
from http://www.islamawareness.net/Polygamy/why.html
Why is Polygamy allowed in Islam
Dr. Zakir Naik
Polygamy
Q. Why is a man allowed to marry more than one wife in Islam? Or why is polygamy allowed in Islam?
Answer:
1. Definition of Polygamy Polygamy means a system of marriage whereby one person has more than one spouse. Polygamy can be of two types. One is polygyny where a man marries more than one woman, and the other is polyandry, where a woman marries more than one man. In Islam, limited polygyny is permitted and polyandry is completely prohibited. Now coming to the original question, why is a man allowed to have more than one wife?
2. Qur’an is the only religious scripture in the world that says ‘marry only one’ Qur’an is the only religious book, on the face of this earth, that contains the phrase ‘marry only one’. There is no other religious book that instructs men to have only one wife. In none of the religious scriptures like the Vedas, the Ramayan, the Mahabharat, the Geeta or the Bible does one find a restriction on the number of wives. According to these scriptures one can marry as many as one wishes. It was only later, that the Hindu priests and the Christian Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Many Hindu religious personalities, according to their scriptures, had multiple wives. King Dashrat, the father of Rama, had more than one wife. Krishna had several wives. In earlier times, Christian men were permitted as many wives as they wished, since the Bible puts no restriction on the number of wives. It was only a couple of centuries ago that the Church restricted the number of wives to one.
Polygyny is permitted in Judaism. According to Talmudic law, Abraham had 2 wives, and Solomon had hundreds of wives. The practice of polygyny continued till Rabbi Gershom ben Yehudah. (960 A.D to 1030 A.D) issued an edict against it. The Jewish Sephardic communities living in Muslim countries continued the practice till as late as 1950, when an Act of the chief Rabbinate of Israel extended the ban on marrying more than one wife.
3. Hindus are more polygamous than Muslims The report of the ‘Committee of The Status of Woman in Islam’, published in 1975 mentions on page numbers 66,67 that the percentage of polygamous marriages between the year 1951 -1961 was 5.06 among the Hindus and only 4.31 among the Muslims. According to Indian law only Muslim men are permitted to have more than one wife. It is illegal for any non-Muslim in India to have more than one wife. Despite it being illegal, Hindus have more multiple wives as compared to the Muslim. One can imagine what would have been the percentage of polygamous marriages among the Hindus if the Indian government had made it legal for them. Earlier, there was no restriction even on Hindu men with respect to the number of wives allowed. It was only in 1954, when the Hindu Marriage Act was passed that it became illegal for a Hindu to have more than one wife. At present it is the Indian Law that restricts a Hindu man from having more than one wife and not the Hindu scriptures. Let us now analyse why Islam allows a man to have more than one wife.
4. Qur’an permits limited polygyny As I mentioned earlier, Qur’an is the only religious book on the face of the earth that says ‘marry only one’. The context of this phrase is the following verse from Surah Nisa of the Glorious Qur’an: ‘Marry woman of your choice in twos’ threes’ or fours’ but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly, (with them), then only one’ [Al-Qur'an 4:3]
Before the Qur’an was revealed, there was no upper limit for polygyny and many men had scores of wives, some even hundreds. Islam put an upper limit of four wives. Islam gives a man permission to marry two, three or four women, only on the condition that he deals with them justly. In the same chapter i.e. Surah Nisa verse 129 says: ‘It is very difficult to be just and fair between women’. [Al-Qur'an (4:129)]
Therefore polygyny is not a rule but an exception. Many people are under the misconception that it is compulsory for a Muslim man to marry more than one wife.
Broadly, Islam has five categories of Do’s and Dont’s.
(i) ‘Farz’ i.e compulsory
(ii) ‘Mustahab’ i.e recommended or encouraged
(iii) ‘Mubah’ i.e permissible
(iv) ‘Makruh’ i.e ‘not recommended’ or discouraged
(v) ‘Haram’ i.e prohibited or forbidden
Polygyny falls in the middle category of things that are permissible. It cannot be said that a Muslim who has two, three or four wives is a better Muslim as compared to a Muslim who has only one wife.
5. Average life span of females is more than that of males By nature males and females are born in approximately the same ratio. During paediatric age however, in childhood itself a female child has more immunity than a male child. A female child can fight the germs and diseases better than the male child. For this reason, there are more deaths among males as compared to the females during paediatric age.
During wars, there are more men killed as compared to women. More men die due to accidents and diseases than women. The average life span of females is more than that of males, and at any given time one finds more widows in the world than widowers.
6. India has more male population than female due to female foeticide and infanticide. India is one of the few countries, along with the other neighbouring countries, in which the female population is less than the male population. The reason lies in the high rate of female infanticide in India, and the fact that more than one million female foetuses are aborted every year in this country, after they are identified as females. If this evil practice is stopped, then India too will have more females as compared to males.
7. World female population is more than male population In the USA, women outnumber men by 7.8 million. New York alone has one million more females as compared to the number of males, and of the male population of New York one-third are gays i.e sodomites. The USA as a whole has more than twenty-five million gays. This means that these people do not wish to marry women. Great Britain has four million more females as compared to males. Germany has five million more females as compared to males. Russia has nine million more females than males. God alone knows how many million more females there are in the whole world as compared to males.
8. Restricting each and every man to have only one wife is not practical Even if every man got married to one woman, there would still be more than thirty million more females in USA who would not be able to get husbands (considering that America has twenty five million gays). There would be more than four million females in Great Britain 5 million females in Germany and nine million females in Russia alone who would not be able to find a husband.
Suppose my sister happens to be one of the unmarried women living in USA, or suppose your sister happens to be one of the unmarried women in USA. The only two options remaining for her are that she either marries a man who already has a wife or becomes public property. There is no other option. I have posed this question to hundreds of non-Muslims and all opted for the first. However a few smart people before accepting, said they would prefer their sisters to remain virgins. Biologically, it is not possible for an average man or a woman to remain celibate throughout life. It may be possible in exceptional cases of one in ten thousand. In the vast majority, the person either gets married or performs illicit sex or indulges in other sexual perversions. Sex hormones are released in the adult body every day. That is the reason why Islam has prohibited monasticism.
In Western society it is common for a man to have mistresses and/or multiple extra-marital affairs, in which case, the woman leads a disgraceful, unprotected life. The same society, however, cannot accept a man having more than one wife, in which women retain their honourable, dignified position in society and lead a protected life.
Thus the only two options before a woman who cannot find a husband is to marry a married man or to become public property. Islam prefers giving women the honourable position by permitting the first option and disallowing the second. There are several other reasons, why Islam has permitted limited polygyny, but it is mainly to protect the modesty of women.
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I am learning a lot from everyone’s posts and the discussions they lead to.
Filmibhai, it alarms me that you refer often to historical incidents to justify fear of Muslims in your midst. Amartya Sen wrote something particularly compelling in “The Argumentative Indian” about the folly of punishing innocent people for past crimes of others:
“Even if Aurangzeb had been the only Muslim ruler in India (he was, of course, one of a great many), the idea of a historical retribution would be exceptionally silly: it is a proposal for matching a historical folly by creating a new folly, penalizing people for `sins’ that they did not themselves commit.”
Extremism should be recognized as a virulent mutation that becomes a belief system of its own. It makes no sense to use the acts of fringe groups to tar the majority of decent people who follow or were born into that faith — unless of course you are a politician and it helps you to win votes.
As Kavita said, how far in history do we want to go to, to avenge?
I will add my own question:
When is it acceptable for government leaders to promote or allow terrorism in the name of preventing future attacks by fringe elements?
These are urgent questions that apply to many nations, not just India.
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For Christmas:
The music of Hildegard von Bingen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-glCKfYGeA&feature=related
[ spiritus sanctus ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCZdjYrB788
[ caritas abundant ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXTvWPqzDwM
[ the living light ]
GREGORIAN CHANTS:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5p_U8J0iRQ&feature=related
[ Salve Regina ]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGdtll3KAqw&feature=related
[ et Lux in Tenebris ]
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‘Rahul Dholakia raised a very important question here. Does anyone know what happened with all the money that was allocated for the riot victims?’
this dholakia dude is trying to be too smart for his boots .. in asking a question he is almost accusing when he got no proof yet. is gujarat the only state for him where he might suspect misappropriation of funds. what about the numerous other infamous state govts whose netas are feathering their own nests at cost of public funds.
he is smart enough to make a film on hindu extremism, prove his secularity and get a national award. if it was abt islamic extremism, he might have been India’s Theo Van Gough . and he knows it lol.
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@KJ – 182:
KJ, I don’t know if Hindus are the original inhabitants of India or not but I hope I certainly am. In fact, I would prefer to use the word “Vedantic” instead of Hindu as the word Hindu is never found in any of our ancient scriptures and it is coined very recently.
My faith and culture is much more older but now that the word “Hindu” is in popular usage, I would not mind using it.
Well, that’s the beauty of our religion. It evolves. The 4 Vedas are guides but not rule books. My god does not order me to do anything. He tells me only to do good. As an evolved and intelligent species, my god assumed that humans can figure out the difference between good and bad themselves. I assume my god to be as loving as my mother. My mother never becomes angry with me…Well sometimes she does gets pissed off but never punishes me. She would hate to see me in pain. I would like to see my god as a woman, Adi Shakti…cos only a woman can be as perfect as a god. She is not so narcissistic that she demands that I pray to her ten times a day…She is just happy to watch me grow into a nice human being and complete the duty for which I am created for…
This does not mean I disrespect other paths and ideologies. But I demand that I be left anyone to chose my own path. Hindus for centuries have been just absorbing…They never reacted when everyone kept saying that their god is false, they will not go to heaven, they will be punished on the day of reckoning blah blah blah! We never told anyone else that you will go to hell if you don’t believe in our god.
But do you understand that pushed any further, the Hindu wave will strike back like a Tsunami? That is what happened in Gujarat. You asked that of all the people killed in Gujarat, how many were terrorists?
Why don’t you ask the same question to the fundamentalists if of all the people who were killed in the 9/11 bombings, how many were enemies of Islam who are waging a war at their religion? How many of the Mumbai Train Blast victims were fighting against Islam?
Okay, you might say that not all Muslims are involved and it is an isolated group. Do you watch TV? Do you surf the Internet?
After the 9/11 attacks, did you see how Muslim nations rejoiced? People on the streets smiling and celebrating. These are NOT terrorists! Did you forget these visuals so fast?
Let me also tell you one more experience of mine. In Hyderabad, many years back I witnessed an incident…no not the riots…that makes me wonder even now…India Pakistan Cricket Match…India Lost….The Muslims of the neighborhood…I mean the whole Neighborhood…Must be hundreds of them or even thousands…They took out a “Julus”(Procession) celebrating Pakistan’s win…They burst firecrackers…I was terribly hurt…They were not some isolated group?
Someone here said it’s easy to write comments sitting in your Air Conditioned rooms…Did you ever once step into those colonies? Minis and Suzys, who live in Canadas and Americas, have no idea what really is the ground reality. I would bet my Hindu ass that NOT ONCE in their life they would have walked down a dingy alley in a Muslim locality and have had a discussion with a lower middle class Muslim.
Okay…I don’t blame Muslims for this situation…Let me be clear on that….I blame the leaders…Religious and Political. Discontent and anger ALWAYS stems from hunger….
They kept these people always hungry….angry….No wonder it is easy so easy to find a suicide bomber these days….He tends to believe the theory of 72 virgins and heck, even if its not true, it must be much better than the current life he is leading.
But again, sometimes I wonder if hunger and anger are the only reasons for this terror and discontent….Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries in the world. If it really wants, it could uplift the whole of Muslim population in the world but instead, they chose to push their people further into poverty and religion. Why?
I don’t know what exactly happened in the Train in Godhra. But I know that Hindus were burnt alive…How and Why? Well….Even Laloo Prasad Yadav does not have a clue…
I hate violence. But I also believe in Lord Krishna’s message in Bhagavad Gita.
So Gujarat was enraged. I totally condemn what happened there. Well, even Godhra should not have happened….But on the other side, a part of me tells that if there was no reaction to Godhra, the enemy(I am not generalizing) would be further emboldened and many more thousands of lives will be at risk in the future….
So now there is a status quo. I hope this remains forever. I don’t know how much Modi is to be blamed for this but whoever I met from Gujarat said that he is the best thing that could have happened for that state.
Peace will be there ONLY if everyone respects the others choice to lead their life with complete freedom, chose whatever religion they want to without fear and practice it without any hindrance. I guess that’s called Democracy?
But just don’t call me a Kafir.
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Since Mr Machhar has declared himself to be a ‘vadantic’, it settles a few issues.
The tolerant, all-encompassing Rig Veda, for instance, has this to say about women:
Women are fickle minded. Never believe them. Friendship with a women is just like friendship with a wolf. (Rig-Veda 8-33-7)
Not to be undone, Atharva Veda, goes a step further:
A virtuous woman is one who dies on the funeral pyre of her dead husband and avails the privilege of serving her husband in the other world. (Atharva Veda 18-3-1)
And I am not even beginning to invoke the various Puranas and Brahmanas and the 20 smritis not including the infamous Manusmriti. And here we have liberal exegetes interpreting communities historically along “dark” and “enlightened” ages. What a pity!
Mainak is concerned about the status of women within the Islamic society and I am not questioning his right to do so (Kavita has so convincingly refuted the charges that the whole baraat of PFCites have levelled exclusively against Islam from ‘quintessentially liberal positions’ which Hinduism so ‘naturally’ wedded to)
The ‘vedantic’s have given out clear instructions that the vedas are not to be criticised; that the upper caste women are not to read them and the lower caste women are not even to think about them; that a woman’s access to vedas is deemed complete if they have adequately served their legitimate menfolk. Even if you had not declared yourself to be a ‘vedantic’,we would have known the august pedestal where you have and your ilk has installed itself.
As for Mainak:
“Maybe its time for the tolerant muslims to start raising their voices, if they are the majority. Thats the problem of tolerant people. They are always quite”
I quote a few names at random for your perusal:
Sahir Ludhianvi
Majrooh Sultanpuri
Kaifi Azmi
Mehboob Khan
Kamaal Amrohi
Rahi Masoom Raza
Javed Akhtar
Majaz
Faiz Ahmad Faiz
Nazim Hikmet
Tariq Ali
Lal Khan
Farhan Akhtar
Dileep Kumar
Shahrukh Khan
Amir Khan
Salman Khan
Saif Ali Khan
Dia Mirza
Saania Mirza
Ehsaan (of the Shankar Ehsaan Loy fame)
Farha Khan
Taboo
Shabana
Taslima Nasreen
Fehmida Riaz
Asma Jahangir
Madeeha Gauhar
Safdar Hashmi
Shabnam Hashmi
Sabiha Sumar
Wajahat Mirza
Saeed Mirza
Aziz Mirza
Habib Tanvir
Khayyam
AR Rehman
Sayeeda Hamid
Romana Hussain
Kazi Nazrul Islam
Mamooty
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@Mini 224: Mini, sometimes how silly can you get
As I clearly mentioned, the ancient hindu (vedic) scriptures are nothing but guides. NOT RULEBOOKS. It is for us to understand the validity and goodness of whatever is written and is applicable to the present times and weed out the rest. That is what OUR human mind is for.
When we buy rice grains from the market, we do of course separate the rice from the stones and cook only the rice. Just to say that because the rice grains contain stones, we cannot say everything is damaged. We use our brains. HAVE YOU EVER HEARD A HINDU saying that Vedas must be strictly followed and it is gods words? NO. We are very clear on that. Unlike Quran and Bible, Vedas are not a To do and Not to do list. I’m seriously starting to doubt your sanity Mini…
Mini…Also can you tell me what is that faith that you follow?
We have to understand that no system is perfect. But I would be more comfortable with a system that is open to evolution and change. You talked about Sati…Tell me where is Sati practiced today?
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…and here we come to lessons in theory of theology…saw it coming…anyway..!
well the point is simple..for me..all the scriptures were written according to the requirements of society at that period as perceived by their prophets…rig vedas were written in 1000 b.c. and are in consonance wid requirements and prejudices of that age…quran was written according to requirements of seventh century a.d. by muhammad….similarly for christianity….all these were ideas whose time had come…but having said that if all these scriptures would amount to bullshit..if they were rigidly followed in the same pattern as they were written at that time..
..the point i want to make is that dark and enlightened periods of a religion depends not on their scriptures but practises of their followers.
..hinduism had a golden period when most of its followers selectively followed the quest of knowledge,arts as invocated by vedas…but they had their dark ages when they interpreted same vedas n manu-smritis selectively…and fell again to caste,sati,dowry pratha n so on n became a closed society….it was again with help of INFLUENTIAL reformers like raja ram mohan roy,gandhi n ambedkar…and of course with independence…that hinduism is on way to recovery….i for one do not mistake tolerance of hinduism for any religion as a constant trait…till 1200 A.D. we were tolerant because we were strong..open to new ideas…after 1200 A.D. we were tolerant..because we were weak..weak in martial power…we had no other option…BUT YES FOR ALL ITS DARK N GOLDEN PERIODS OF HINDUISM….IT HAD NO EXPANSIONIST POLICY…NO FORCED CONVERSIONS..AND THAT DIFFERENTIATES HINDUISM FROM OTHER RELIGIONS…
…christianity ..similarly it had its dark ages of forced conversions n crusades…n a golden period which has continued from renaissance…due to terrific scientific n artistic temperament of majority of its followers…and since its period of glory continues from 1600 A.D. it has a head start of 500 years before all religions…and hence it is the most modern n tolerant of religions today…
…we all know that there are pieces of bullshit written in old testament n new testament simply because they were written according to requirements n beliefs n prejudices of that age….but look at the way they reformed…a religion wid a history of burning books n scientists, crusades..comes to reform itself so much so…that da vinci code comes..becomes a bestseller in christian world…and yet no one raises an eyelid..( do u think with all our tolerance in india such a blasphemy against hindu scriptures would hv gone un-noticed..surely not..!)…the twin towers are bombed…5000 (mostly) christians killed in u.s.a….yet there are no riots in u.s,a,…no muslim is killed..if this is not tolerance then..what is it…?
…that brings us to ISLAM..there are indeed problems with this religion now…i will try to explain what they are…at the very outset prophet muhammad says..this is the last word of God..henceforth there will be no modification….of course there are many interpretations…but many of the followers chose to follow islam too literally as it was written in seventh century A.D..( taking undue advantage of the fact that prophet’s word is the last word)..there have been reforms,interpretations in islam too but too far n too few…the tragedy of islam is that there have been few martin luther kings among them,fewer raja ram-mohan roy…just fewer educational reforms still…
..THE POINT I WANT TO MAKE IS THAT…THE GLORY OF RELIGIONS DO NOT DEPEND UPON GLORY OF ITS SCRIPTURES OF PAST BUT THE PRACTISES OF MAJORITY OF ITS FOLLOWERS TODAY…
..continuing on to islam…the religion in which doctors are turning into suicide bombers..engineers are blasting twin towers..is really in a bad state…
..mini has mentioned twenty muslims in her example as famous reformist muslims..i will say there are twenty thousand of them…problem is that they are not influential…all of them pale in comparison to influence of a mukhtar ansari,syed sahabbudin…compare it to thehindu populace…there are hundreds who oppose the policies n practises of vhp n rss…and are INFLUENTIAL AS WELL AS VOCAL ABOUT IT…
..FOR ALL ITS GLORY..ISLAM TODAY HAS NO COUNTERWEIGHT TO RADICALS…AND EVEN ITS INFLUENTIAL LIBERALS( MUSHARRAF,BHUTTO)..HAVE CHOSEN TO SELECTIVELY COLLUDE WITH RADICALS AT DIFFERENT POINTS IN HISTORY..AND THAT MAKES THEM CIRCUMSPECT…while in india simply speaking quote me examples of democratically elected muslim leaders…and most of them are like narendra modi if not worse..
the rise of rss,vhp n its offshoot bjp..(or radical hindutva) ocurred only because secular parties like congress were dishonest n played double game..( yes rajiv gandhi laid the foundationstone of ram janma bhoomi n narsimha rao helped its fall..)…
..come to think of it..there in lies the tragedy of india today…a party wid a legacy of gandhiji has become so dishonest and opportunist today..that it is failing..while bjp wid a legacy of killing gandhiji is thriving in state of gujrat…while those regional parties claiming to invoke social justice micro-fracture hindu society further into castes at every turn..(laloo.mulayam,mayawati..)
..i say this and all of this…because i abhor the tenets of vhp n rss..i hated it when modi committed mass genocide…but i hate it more when a party like congress which such high ethical standard has stooped to such a low and opportunism…
…its like a cricket match perhaps..people have selected modi who is low on class..(ideology..)..but high on form..(development for past 5 years,honest governance..)…and dropped congress..which was high on class..( secular ethos,composite culture..)…but low on form..(selective engagement of muslim fundamentalism,hindu fundafentalism, corruption and all..)
…the choice was difficult..but the people of gujrat have made it..and unless congress stops playing the game of opportunism and weeds out sycophants like arjun singh and shivraj patil amidst its midst..the great congress will fall…and casteist n communal elements will take over all of india..
..the consolation of gujrat is that there is development at least associated with it though of course with danger of communal agenda…but our casteist n regionist parties unfortunately come with no such solace..
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[Take Three: To End The Discussion]
Areah, tum logo kyon lassi ki dahi kar-rahe-ho!
This discussion will never end. Because, so far you guys are just giving out examples to counter-attack… and there are zillions of examples out there. You guys are just quoting books or other people’s opinion. Nothing else and arguing for no reason.
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…the very act of prophet muhammad saying it the last word of God makes perhaps islam more ressistant to evolution and change…despite many educated n rational muslims around…and perhaps that is why quran has become a rulebook rather than a guidebook…which is indeed dangerous…
..come-on romila thapar says that in vedic times
hindus used to eat flesh n wine…has any fatwa been issued on her…
..now take the example of salman rushdie…take the cartoons of prophet example…and you have clear example of which religion is more tolerant…
..but in the same breadth hinduism is much less tolerant than christian world also…
i believe if you include intellectual content of scriptures…
hinduism,budhism,confuciasm are much above both christianity and islam..
but if you rate them on basis of tolerance OF MAJORITY OF FOLLOWERS TODAY…
it is christianity followed by hinduism…followed by islam way behind..
but again if you rate them on basis of brotherhood (n hence expansionist tendencies by a bad corollary)
then it is islam..followed by christianity..followed by hinduism way behind..
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this is for Mini (whatever her actual name maybe), the terrorist lover
anyone knows whats the Rape laws described in Quran .. the supposed word of God . read here.
- A rape must be witnessed by atleast 4 men (im already laughing) . if the rape is reported and the victim cannot produce 4 witnesses in the court of law , then the victim is subject to harsh punishments (not sure what they are though .. can be anything frm public stoning to lashes).
now think about it.
does this law prevent rape ?? or does it ENCOURAGE rape .. i think its the latter .
anther nice law .. concerning matters of judgement.
- if 1 man testifies something in the court of law, 2 women are needed to counter his testimony .. coz Quran states that women have half the intelligence of men.
these nice things are the supposed words of God for muslims who are supposed to gobble down all this prehistoric sh!t without questioning.
another gem
-if a girl is found having an affair , she is buried upto her waist in the earth. and then a congregation of people throw stones at her (size of stones is specied – not too small, not too large) so she ultimately bleeds to death and dies. the stones shudnt be small otherwise they’l have no impact. the stone shudnt be too large otherwise the woman will die too soon.
wow ! God is so smart !
if u disbelieve, u can check up a few videos on Youtube showing this punishment.
more
- public floggings for gays/ lesbians
-public floggings for those caught drinking wine.
all this ACTUALLY happens in strict islamic countries (iran, saudi arabia, afghanistan, middle east)
ofcourse there are other gems like strict gender segregation, burkas .
one would imagine islam is practiced in its purest form in saudi arabia (being its cradle). look up the rights of women there . they arent even allowed to drive cars .
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Kavita
Thanks a lot for those links. I would try to keep in touch with you.
I’m exhausted with this debate. Its draining my mind , so I will sign off. It was very interesting & enlightning.
My basic deal is I dislike & abhorr religion. Some more than others. That doent make me a Hindu fascist. When people ask me whats my religion I’ve never said I’m a Hindu. But I feel being labelled here. I have a tendency to be politically incorrect, which results in accusations. But I’m glad this discussion is happening. I learned a lot of things.
Mini thanks for the list. I am very tempted to raise the credentials of some of the people in your list. But that would again drain both of us in 10 other counter comments.
Goonda, no one is forcing you to read any of this.
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a few videos to prove it
look at the related videos also if u like
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the videos didnt embed in the post .. so im just givin the links instead
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yB3Rb0ckVRo
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=hGFQ0PTjbFY&feature=related
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i dont believe n religions much myself .. but i would say religions which can evolve are better than static ones anyday.
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Mainak,
True, I can easily ignore this discussion. But, there is always a but, so but, these comments were sticking out as a thorn on…. Which sort of forced me to make a comment.
You guys weren’t going anywhere with the discussion – just attacking each others with examples (and a bit of name calling). Nothing else. So thought of pointing out the obvious…
Anyway…
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Where in Quran is all this found? Quote chapter and verse – until then you remain a sly operator of the lie machine.
The last word of God is not the way ordinary Muslim lives. Nor, for that matter, do Hindus and Christians. Take, for instance, the case of music. Regardless of what you might say about the injunctions in Islam against music, the fact remains that some of the finest musicians the world has known are Muslims.
There is a clear alaat aginst women singing Sufi verses but the fact is that both Farghana Qasimov and Abida Parveen are amongst the finest ever Sufi musicians.
There is such a thing as a counter-hegemonic move. People do resist hegemonic modes of subjugation and Islam is no exception. They pay a price much like Meera and Lal Ded did; much like Raabia and Habba Khatoon did; much like Joan of Arc did. Mansoor and Sarmad and many more names would come to mind. Your number of twenty thousand Muslims is an infantile wish to score points. I wonder how Pravaah put up with you for so long. In the 21st century, you propose a historiography designed along racist dark and bright ages. What could be more unfortunate?
Going by the communal and aggressive comments posted here, it would seem as if this is a forum run by the likes of Anil Sharmas, Chandraprakash Dwivedi and Ashok Pandit and not Oz, Anurag Kashyap or Sudhir Mishra.
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@ Mini
This is a cinema review site … what trip are u on ? pLEASE reconsider. Thanx
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Are you so wilfully blind as to accuse me of being on a trip. Look at what all you tribe together is indulging in! If nothing else, at least take a mathematically measured look and see who is doing what on this forum! Such unabashed hatred and intolerance.
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Hi Mini !
No hatred and no intolerance as far as I am concerned ! 
All I asked is for you to come out of the mud-shack,….onto the sunlit porch ! 
Am all for u ! Come across and radiate the beauty and intelligence that u stand for Mini ! 
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Thank! No hard feelings, yaar!
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@ Mini
Do lemme know what is that u do ?
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mini..
specific opinion..
1.i have no trouble with quran…and yes it insists that this book was written by allah…and clearly says there will be no prophet after muhammad which in effect means the same..it being equivalent to last word of God..
yet there have been many great islamic scholars and have interpreted quran according to times they live in..
2. i do not claim supremacy of hindu religion over islam or christianity…
why i call islam is in dark ages today..?
1. any religion where ordinary people are so poor…( in india for example)…unemployed.{.not i but sachar commitee says that..}..there has to be some problem with the community today…
the character of muslim leaders today is much inferior as compared to those in its glorious past..
2. what is the progress made by islam in science in past 100 years..?
3. if a religion in which doctors are turning mass murderers..engineers are turning bombers..is not in bad shape..then which religion is ..?
you have opression and injustice everywhere…but where do u see people of other religion blowing themself in the name of religion…
4.again i repeat..i have no problems with muhammad..and quran…but i have problem with al qaeda..just as i have no problem with hinduism..but i have problem wid communal pose of vhp,rss..n casteist pose of laloo,maya,mulayam..
5. please name the activist,reformer,popular leaders of islam in india..WHO HAVE AIMED TO REFORM THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY..WHO REPRESENT A MUSLIM MANDATE..
..do not name any film stars,poets,metaphysicists…GIVE ME THE NAME OF POPULAR MUSLIM LEADERS…WHO REPRESENT THE VOICE OF THEIR COMMUNITY…
..who is more popular opinion builder in ordinary muslim community…imaam bukhari or javed akhtar or shabana aazmi…?…
..compare it with hindu community…who is more popular and respected today…italy returned sonia gandhi..or by now defamed shankracharya..?
who gave a damn..when shankracharya was arrested for his mis-deeds..
.it would be interesting to visualise…how many folks would collect when imaam bukhari would be arrested…
6. how many predominantly muslim states are democracies today..?
p.s…if islam..refuses to address the menace of its mullahs..and so many mis interpretations of its religion..floating as taliban and al qaeda..its dark age will become darker…
..and that change has to be initiated by a leaders of its own..whether it be musharrafs…bhuttos..javed akhtars..salman khans..whatever…but that requires courage and sacrifice,lack of opportunism …which is in short supply in liberal leaders of islam today..
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Machar ji:
I do live in the US now but I come from Lucknow in India where muslims and hindu sometimes live in harmony and sometimes riot against each other. And I am talking of the old city- Chowk, Aminabad, Charbagh et al. So for you to say that I have not walked in a muslim “galli” is inaccurate. I was in Versova, Mumbai just two weeks ago walking the Char Bangla, Machli Mar area. So I do not keep myself insulated. But you are right- my life is far removed from the trials and tribulations of those who often get caught in the crossroads of violence. Anyhow, if US policy continues to ride rough shod over all and sundry, then the day is not far when violence comes right here to my neighborhoods.
Mini ji: Peace. I do do not think you can paint everyone at PFC with the same brush just like many here cannot label all Indian muslims as terrorist. People are angry and this is not even a microcosm of the real India!
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Hi. I have been following the feedback to Ramu’s article somewhat arbitrarily, given the numerous responses and counter responses!
Like some others who have already agreed with Ramu that hate cannot be overcome with hate- I couldn’t agree more. Gujarat may have capitalized on the economic boom under Modi but that does not necessarily make him a good governor. In fact his clear complicity in the Godhra riots makes it shameful that such a man should be elected to office.
His win may be justified under democratic procedures but while we are proud to be a democracy we cannot deny that ours is also a paradoxical one. As such the most undemocratic of acts have taken place and continue to take place.
We as responsible and socially committed citizens therefore need to constantly question. While we may see the pros, the cons need a deeper scrutinity.
In the name of economic success, people like Modi are eating away at the very values of what it means to be a human. How come nobody talks about, for instance, the quite poor male to female sex ratio in Gujarat? How come nobody talks about the poor people who have to face the terrible consequences of being displaced in the name of economic improvement?
As for the question of Muslims, not alone in India but around the world, Islam on an average has been clouded with interpretations that seem covenient. Fanaticism is not limited to Islam alone. Somewhere in this discussion I also read about how art has been disparagingly looked upon by the Muslims but I think someone had the good sense to counter that.
It is pathetic to make such a sweeping generalization as it was indeed the Muslim world, which in its golden age, introduced not only great art but also the sciences and mathematical computations like Algebra. The problem apparently was that later unlike Christianity, Islam did not go through a reformation.
As for the problematic Islamic states, let us not forget that most of these Muslim majority countries like Libya, came into being after the fall of the Ottoman Empire in Turkey and mind you the British had a cunning role to play. The intertwining of history, politics and territorial claims has often spelt disastrous results, clearly in evidence with the Israel-Palestine issue.
This is not to say that hardcore Islam is not problematic but then so is the ideology of organizations like the VHP. I think to step outside all dogmas, be they in orientation- ideological (‘isms’) or religious or both and then question, is truly difficult.
At the same time for a phenomenally diverse country,we have done well for ourselves. All thanks to the building blocks laid down by supremely gifted and socially driven men like Gandhi, Nehru, Ambedkar and yes even Patel. They may have had their foibles but had it not been for them we would not have had our taste of democracy. That such a legacy has not been able to fully take root even after so many years of Independence, needs brutal self-interrogation.
Even today India exists in castes, sub-castes and the community clusters around it. The Hindu caste system is intrinsically hierarchial and defies the very idea of democracy. That to my mind is one of the key problems in a Hindu dominated country.
In the meanwhile let it indeed be Modi v/s Modi. The equation only spells trouble, not least for the man himself.
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Mini says that stoning to death of women in Islam is a lie made by me. so lets hear it from the horses mouth .. a Shahi Imam (from Ludhiyana)
[b]As per Islamic law, the Ludhiana cleric said, any Muslim woman and her paramour, if found to be having illicit relations, are liable to be punished by stoning to death in public.’[/b]
source – http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Amarinder_and_I_are_just_friends_says_Pak_journalist/articleshow/2653036.cms
Mini u r a bad liar :d
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You said it is laid down in Quran.
I said show me the chapter and verse.
You are not just a liar if you can’t, you are a diabolic bigot full of venom and hatred for another community.
What is this idiotic cleric in Ludhiana worth? He is a fool and I do pity him as indeed I pity you for being so palpably dishonest.
Hindu clerics from Ayodhya have announced rewards for Hussain’s death,I do not conflate that with the larger Hindu view. Do I?
Manu’s and other smriti’s speak such utter nonsense about women and shudras, I do not take it to be a representative view of the Hindus. Do I?
Rig veda and Atharva veda lapse into the worst possible anti-women positions, I forgive them. Do I have an option?
Hindus in the North do not look at their religious selfhood in quite the same way as the Hindus in the South; tribals look at their religious selfhood differently from the urbanites; shudras from the Brahmins. You require an Anupam to conflate the Muslims from Uzbekistan,Kazhakistan, Tajikstan, Azerbaizan, Kurdistan, Persia, Indonesia, Malaysia, China… with one paintbrush soaked in venom.
There maybe the word of God. But the word of God is interpreted by humankind. That is where the possibilty of counter-hegemonic resistance lies. Otherwise, we will have the filmbhais and machhars speaking with a dangerous streak of foolishness or the Anupams holding forth with an academic stake profiling a religious mass as a monolith of diable.
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sry Mini .. he is not just anoter idiot cleric .. he is a Shahi Imam of Jama Masjid .. a highly respected authority.
it is obvious he knows more abt the Quran than you do ..
whats dangerous is that such things are considered relevant in today’s age by u .. whereas ppl of all other religions have moved ahead of their respective dated scriptures. but your scriptures are supposed to be the final word of God. too bad !
happy pfc’ing
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…@mini..
as i can see i am getting on your nerves and you are getting on mine…
i have clearly shown in comment number 158 with multiple evidences…that you are an inconsistent hypocrite…now what i realise in coming past few comment that you are a master of reframing and generalisations and bullshitting..
here are further evidences…
1. never i made a case for sanghis,vhp…yet you go on to label me as a part of sanghi lie machine..
2. i only made a case for the reasons that gujrat people have selected modi over congress…i have clearly said that it looks like more of the people of gujrat have preferred modi’s development plank and strong image over his abominable acts of mass genocide….nowhere have i praised modi or said muslims deserved this….i only made a case that sometimes a dishonest surgeon is preferred over a benign physician…and i have admitted that it is dangerous at the same time given examples of putin and mao..as how they single handedly were responsible for rescuing their country from chaos..given their autocratic style…and i have admitted a danger in this..
yet yo go on to label me as “how come pravaah put up with you for this long”…and label me as a communal freak/…
3. i speak of the cult of death that has affected islam…i speak of the bad times that majority of islamic faith is in..( and i hv said also talked about dark ages of hinduism n christianity in same vein..)
and there are many of the sociologists of your clan who admit it…even M.J. akbar,thomas friedman admit it..and have written about it..i ask of muslim community to look within itself and find solution to the issues of fundamentalism that has afflicted the religion in past 10 years..
.yet you charge me with painting the whole religion with a brush of venom..how fair is that..
4. you initially have labelled pfc as communal freaks..anurag worshippers…without answering our direct questions…
you go on from argument to argument bullshitting your jargon you have learned in your sociology classes..like counter-hegemonic ressistance,historiography..
you go on labelling us..despite not justifying any bullshit of yours..and answering our specific questions..see comment 241
4. i have said before that problem with you is not your anti-views,opinion..but your attitude..
you hv made whatever views you stand for..(and at times they are very articulate,erudite..)..blurred in the farts of hypocrisy..
..mini the hypocritical medium has become more important than message of mini..and the message is lost..
…many people have voiced their views against anurag kashyap and modi..but have you wondered why you have been most resented…ya it is because of ur attitude..
5. i do not know about the social service you have rendered to cause of islam….
..but i can say that i have been involved in pulse polio immunization in muslim areas,collected funds for riot victims in gujrat in 2002,work as a doctor in a hospital near the walled city of delhi catering to muslim majority…and none of my muslim patients have accused me of unfavour bias to hindu patients…
having made my position clear..
I SINCERELY THINK THAT YOU ARE GETTING ON MY NERVES AS YOU WITH ALL YOUR EGOTISM AND BULLSHITTING HAD GONE ON THE NERVES OF CERTAIN MR. ANURAG KASHYAP…
I ALSO LIKE HIM, WAVE A WHITE FLAG at YOU..I REQUEST YOU NOT TO COMMENT ON ANY OF MY POSTS I MAKE AND I WILL MAKE NO COMMENT ABOUT YOU OR YOURS…FOR I BELIEVE IT IS NOT POSSIBLE TO HAVE A REASONABLE DISCOURSE ON ANY ISSUE WITH A BULLSHITTING,EGOTIST LIKE YOU…AS YOU MIGHT BELIEVE IT IS NOT POSSIBLE WITH A A ‘SO CALLED SANGHI’ LIKE ME..
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hey fellow pfc’ites..
interesting digressions..humour time..some funny links..
on aaja nachle..
http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/the-body-as-a-floating-signifier/
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/254165.html
on college ,hypocrites, n satire on sociology..
http://indiauncut.com/iublog/article/dave-barry-on-sociology/
http://www.xent.com/FoRK-archive/summer96/0342.html
..enjoy..now when you see some words like heuristic interpretations,artifical camoflague,counter-hegemonic ressistance,racist historiagraphy,subliminal commonalities….i hope you do read the fine print..as i hv..
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you can also listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wX5II-BJ8hI
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hi mini .i wrote allah’s quran.by the nature of force and this book will be published after 2 month and its self publishing so i need to talk with u bcoz u have good knowledge of spiritual asthetics and i send 3 years in this book so i need your opinion and this is my first book.
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hi mini .i wrote allah’s quran, by the force of nature and research and this book will be published after 2 month and its self publishing so i need to talk with u bcoz u have good knowledge of spiritual asthetics and i spend 3 years in this book so i need your opinion and this is my first book.
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Benezir Bhutto was killed.
Like I say….
GOD SAVE US YOUR FOLLOWERS!
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It was a sad ending to an eventful life, how crude can people get for ulterior motives.
We don’t need global warming to kill us, we will kill eachother before that.
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1)Shiv Sainiks attacked M F Hussain’s exhibition.
2)Christian Mob sets Hindu houses on fire in Orissa.
GOD SAVE US YOUR FOLLOWERS!
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Like I said we don
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actually Mainak .. things like this have always been happenin … may be not to this extent but it has always been there …
seen dalit, thevar and other caste wars and rivalries even in madurai and adjacent villages !!
but that time .. we dint have such media coverage so it wasnt flashed arnd that much !!!
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like i posted in a previous post !!!
now i am worried abt the hope for democracy in pak !!!
civil war can most likely break out !! common man we pray for u !!
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Hey George did you check out that song WILDCAT by Ratatat?
Ratatat & Spank Rock – Wildcat vs Backyard Betty (Spruce Lee refix)
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The truth is that we all are going to die one day, every body knows the truth….thats the funny part, so instead of killing each other, or making life difficult for each other,we need to find a way to live happily and in harmony with each other..and make the best use of the time given to us… but who will make these morons understand that..
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read this..
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/253559.html
well i have posted quite prolifically on this thread n as some people accuse “fanatic”ally…but pratap bhai..summarizes in 500 words..what ifelt all along and could not convey in 5000…
..truly insightful..!^:)^
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A perfect video for this thread :d
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Another interesting article of Benezir
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/31gautier.htm
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Your drawing room intellectualism leaves me really with he bad taste in mouth.. what you saw you were writing or what you want to saw you were writing about that. I am a non gujarati living in gujarat. The gallops of development it has taken under modi is a folklore now.Dont be so prejudised.
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How could Ashis Nandy not Evoked in a discussion such as this.. here’s what his thoughts, published in TOI Jan 08 ‘08, are:
Ashis Nandy: Blame The Middle Class
Now that the dust has settled over the Gujarat elections, we can afford to defy the pundits and admit that, even if Narendra Modi had lost the last elections, it would not have made much difference to the culture of Gujarat politics. Modi had already done his job. Most of the state’s urban middle class would have remained mired in its inane versions of communalism and parochialism and the VHP and the Bajrang Dal would have continued to set the tone of state politics. Forty years of dedicated propaganda does pay dividends, electorally and socially.
The Hindus and the Muslims of the state
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Who Are the Losers?
Why Islam Should Tolerate Images
By B. R. GOWANI
http://www.counterpunch.com/gowani01212008.html
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@Mainak
yaar! padhne nahi doge tum log :((
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Most of you MUST have seen the clip of Narendra Modi leaving the interview. Just in case you have not:
Click the sign (-) near the text, on right hand bottom, on the video picture to get it out of the way.)
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/50835/modi-wont-talk-godhra-walks-out-of-interview.html
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Ramu,
your article is interesting and it gives quite good understanding about the subject and things happening in Gujarat.
But, i think the blogs is for cinema.. How do you relate this article with the core focusof the site. or are you just trying to push your views on everyone
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