Poor response to good cinema
Last couple of weeks witnessed the release of good films like Mumbai Meri Jaan, A Wednesday, Rock On, Tahaan and The Last Lear. Of these, only Rock On got a good response from the viewers. Even as MMJ and A Wednesday got ’some’ response Tahaan was virtually rejected at the box office while the collection of The Last Lear is predicted as ‘Thanda’. And all this in spite of a fabulous support and endorsement by the critics in both print and the electronic media. It throws two questions – A. Does the media critics opinion matter to the viewers and B. How effective is the word-of-mouth publicity factor. I am no expert in understanding the ‘trade’ but as a film writer (read Tahaan), whose primary task is to tell a story and entertain the audience, feel confused at the viewer’s behavorial pattern. Do they actually like a good story or they like it only when it’s backed by a star. Otherwise, how come good films like Chak De India and Taare Zameen Par became such a hit against the might of hardcore commercial flicks like Patner and Welcome respectively. Both CDI and TZP had Shahrukh and Aamir Khan. So the audience rallied behind the stars and finding them to be good (films) more and more people got drawn in. Same thing happened to Jodha Akbar. If this analysis of mine is right then what made Rock On click. It has no stars. It has rather has poor singers but it certainly succeeded in stricking a cord with the viewers. Without taking any credit away from Rock On, I am at pains to figure how was the film was ‘better’ than Mumbai Meri Jaan, A Wednesday or Tahaan. Viewers must have found higher entertainment value in Rock On compared to the other films and thats precisely what I am trying to understand – what’s quote/unquote entertainment for the audience? Does it only mean two hours of escape to a world of fantasy? I welcome my other blogger friends to help the film fraternity understand viewers better.
Anurag Kashyap
Abhay Deol
Dibakar Banerjee
Hansal Mehta
Khalid Mohamed
Kundan Shah
Anish Kuruvilla
Jaideep Verma
Manish Gupta
Navdeep Singh
Bhavani Iyer
D. Santosh
Onir
Ashvin Kumar
Ramu Ramanathan
Sudhir Mishra
Pankaj Advani
Revathy
Saurabh Shukla
Shilpa Shukla
Sujoy Ghosh
Suparn Verma
Santosh Sivan
Shashank Ghosh
Shivajee
Pavan Kaul
Partho Sen-Gupta
Prroshant Naryannan
Sam Langoria
Satish Kasetty
Hoping to watch this one soon. :-)
Welcome Anirudhya to PFC. You have put a very relevent question, which has unfortunately puzzled the best of the filmy people. Anyways it is noce to read your views and would be interested to read PFCians. For me, nowadays it all boils down how well the film is marketed to the people, to the distributors, to the media, etc.
I must admit that these are the exact questions that have been on my mind. After watching “Mumbai Meri Jaan” and “A Wednesday”, i really fell in love with both these movies. I felt that slowly but surely, bollywood is moving towards making meaningful,intelligent cinema which will be on display at a regular basis. I was praying that MMJ and a wednesday do well so that more people will be encouraged to make and finance such films on a regular basis.
Alas, that has not been the case.I’m hoping that the producers have at least recovered their money if not made a small profit otherwise the future of such kind of cinema seems bleak.
It just goes to show that you can never predict what is gonna be well received and what is gonna be liked by the audience.You have films TZP and Rock On doing extremely well, when one was anything but your average “masala” flick and the other was devoid of any major stars.
One of the major factors i feel in helping a film do well the film do well is the “hype” factor. It all boils down to how a film is marketed and its here that the small and middle budget films suffer.
Have patience……for films such as Tahaan ,sometimes the dvd collections outpace the box-office collections.
Producers and directors shouldn’t lose hope.
Anirudhya,
Yes, I believe that Rock On, A Wednesday and MMJ were equally good movies. If there is a difference in collections, in my opinion the difference could be because of two factors. Music and promos. I think the music of Rock On did act as a big draw for many. Also one saw a lot more promos surrounding the release of Rock On when compared to Tahaan or A Wednesday.
Having said that, I agree with you that many people might gravitate towards a feel good movie like Rock On when compared to a Tahaan which gave the impression of being a ’serious’ subject, at least from the promos. I am sure the DVD sales of Tahaan will be very encouraging for such movies to keep being made.
In South Korea, there is this concept of a DVD Bang, because a kind of video library cum theater. U go choose a movie of your choice, watch it and of course pay for the time. We could implement such a concept in India. Also movie clubs exist not just in metroes, but even in smaller towns, movies like Tahan could be promoted more through the DVD.
I think instead of just multiplexes, we need to look at DVD. We assume that a YUPPIE kinda person,loaded with cash, in a metro, is the one who will watch movies like Tahaan or Aamir, not accurate. Real time movie lovers come in all sizes and shapes. I know one of my friend who is a hard core movie lover, and an authority on Martin Scorcese, yet he is not the usual YUPPIE profile, he has his own web designing firm in Patna. Another friend of mine, who has an astounding knowledge of European and Japanese movies is a Naval architect working in Vishakapatnam.
So i guess lets concentrate aggresively on marketing through DVD. Case in point Shawshank Redemption, a failure at the theaters, but gained fame just through the DVD’s.
Hi,
I rely on word of mouth publicity for these (not having big stars) movies. Problem is WORM publicity is slow and by that time these movies move to matinee or early afternoon shows.I must have missed quite a few english/hindi movies for this reason.
I wait for thses movie to watch on TV or DVD.Also on satellite TV they show so many times in a week/month, that you don’t need to invest in a DVD :-).
Boss..movies are properties for ever and theatrical release are just one arm of its revenue sources now. TAHAAN in my sundry opinion, has the might to do well 20 years down the line too..in DVD sales, online downloads, TV rights, renewable rights, etc. This is a timeless creation and it will find its buyers. Look at Manorama, the kind of value it is finding now, a year from its theatrical release in astounding. Navdeep is all agog (of course, he doesn’t say anything on this).
Tell you what, if I were your marketeer, I would lug the movie to all schools around India, hire their spaces and at an affordable price, show it to all schools..man, you have a great product, reach out to your customer. Maybe, just maybe, they have not spotted it enough!!
some of the opinions above are all to do with revenue and cost-recovery. but the original question is that: why are these movies not being liked by the theatre going audience??
but tats just hypothetically speaking
i think, the general mood of the ppl is another reason for timing of the movie to be right. too many bomb blasts have taken place and in different cities. so, escapist cinema cud be the need of the hour; and not a wonderfully filmed docu-drama. rock-on was a little escapist, so was bachna-ae-haseeno and singh is king. so, ppl r probably going back to these movies; and jaane tu is still running.
in fact, when there was feel good wave all round then kismat konnection did not do well. probably if they had released it now, it may have done well
Well good/bad movie is relative experience.
For me, “A wednesday” sucked. yuck! The script could have been turned into a beautiful movie however, it is completely wasted. MMJ is slow preach and not very effective in conveying what the director really wanted to convey.
@9. crazyrals.
are you sure? does it work that way? This POV is kinda new to me. Can somebody throw light on it? How does “Public mood” decide a movie?
I don’t know how the audience at large make up their mind.
The way I do is, before the movie releases, I categorize the movie in a. must watch in theater, b. skip at all cost, c. wait for reviews (these includes “critics”, forums:like PFC, and friends).
Yeah, there is one more category, my SO wants to watch, which is like a non-maskable interrupt (in computer terminology) which I have to service.
I think in general, in a family, the kids (pre-teens to teens) are the controllers. They decide which movie to watch. Hence, movies like MMJ, AW, MSFU will never have a large family audience.
While a movie like CDI and TZP will have a wider audience as the afore-mentioned controllers happen to be big fan of SRK/AK-coke/AK-thums up/AB/AB Jr etc
The niche movies may find it audience again depending on the genre and theme during release or later. AFAIK, A Wednesday is doing well in Ahmedabad (my city). May be because its a good movie and the theme resonates with the people.
As somebody mentioned MSFU will have a cult following say in next few years. Something like Swades (which was not a big hit when it released but its vastly discussed in many forums and DVD sales are big)
I really wanted to see Tahaan. From the little that I caught of it in the promos, it looked like another classic Santosh Sivan Cinematography if nothing else. Unfortunately it didn’t
last anytime in Bangalore multiplexes. Waiting for it to be released in DVD.
Another thing I see among my techie friends is a phobia to good/sensitive/meaningful cinema. Knowing SIK is utter trash, people still pay up 200 bucks, 4 hours and come out and say just time pass. Ask them to come along with you for a Tahaan or The Last Lear, they suddenly have work at the office over the weekend or something better to do at home. Some how, probably, they find it uncool to watch sensible cinema or preconceive a certain kind of cinema to be un-entertaining.
A dark film like No Smoking or a soci political drama like Hazaron Khwahishen had much better collective moments of fun than some big banner no brainer ‘King’ movies.
Perhaps in the visible lack of quality, most people find the comfort of the known and the solace of one’s own inability. I think good cinema also needs good audience to be able to appreciate it. And that’s why in Bangalore, if you go on the following weekend, Tahaan is out of cinemas.
@14,
Isn’t that surprising, the role reversal. Few decades back it was looked down upon[1] to watch commercial Bollywood movies. Watching off-beat or Hollywood movies was suppose to make you look classy and intellectual.
[1]: something terribly wrong with the syntax.
What I wanted to mean was, I see most of my friends (SW Enginners/ Business Analysts), they are convinced and genuinely convinced that a Rituparno movie or a Tahaan, would be so heavy and so painstaking, that it’d be insufferable.
I don’t know how such opinions are formed. But they are dangerous, and they are majority.
Well very nice topic and i try to throw some light.
Movies are not made for stars/actors/writer /director or anyone who is a part of that project but that is being made purely for audience (This is my firm believe).On percent basis (Total respective crowd who watch a specific genre of movie compare to that specific audience attend that movie) you will find competition much closer in all above films, now come to the point.
WHAT IS THE FIRST THOUGHT OF ANY PRODUCER BEFORE FINANCING A MOVIE…HOW MY PRODUCT WILL RECOVER OR MAKE MONEY?
One may be very emotional about his product coz that’s his or her own baby but market has no mercy for that. So one must ask himself before making any movie that it would sell or not.” THIS DOESN’T MEAN TO NOT TO TAKE RISK SEE “BHEJA FRY”, SCENARIO WAS QUITE SAME BUT DUE TO WORD OF MOUTH IT GET A HIT (AGAIN IN PERCENTAGE YOU CAN COMPARE TO ANY BIG MOVIE, TOTAL EXP WAS 55 LAKHS ONLY).
HERE POINT IS ONE HAS TO BE VERY RUDE TO HIS PRODUCT IN EVERY TERMS THAT WHAT IS HIS PURPOSE OF MAKING MOVIES. “ROCK ON” IS A GOOD MOVIE BUT I DON’T FEEL IT SIMPLY DELIVER ITS AIM WHICH WAS SHOWN IN BEGINNING…I CAN JUST APPRECIATE PERFORMANCES AND PRESENCE OF BRILLIANT FARHAN AKHTAR.BUT SCRIPT DOESN’T LOOK IMPRESSIVE AT LEAST TO ME.
WEDNESDAY is a brilliant movie indeed…and many have been gone after hearing from me, no faltu song . no jerks., jimmy has done something good and sensible this time.Naseer sir was damn brilliant.
In cut short I just want to ay that whether that was aamir,black Friday,no smoking,Wednesday,Rock on, tahan and may more unconventional cinema’Directors..they were damn clear about their product (that is what I strongly believe , if not then that’s a problem), So I respect and even salute that they were not bother about box office collection coz they want to show what they wish…..they were damn sure about a specific audience will appreciate their product. even for rock on the front benchers was complaining about so many songs again and again and I was enjoying the movie as fullest coz farhan had not let any scene getting down in terms of performance…
All I wanted to say its always one’s vision that what he trying to make and deep core he knows what kind of audience will react to it. For me audience is GOD, and we should def try to mature them but at our own risk.
*SO PRODUCERS BE CAUTIOUS…..
RGDS
A new Director
Umm, beneath a SWE or BA, there is an audience that digs SIKs and Partners of Bollywood :-) That’s there comfort zone. May be there are so stressed out with work and all, that they do not want to experiment a lot when it comes to movies.
I guess they will turn around just like me and most of us did.
I remember, in my childhood I used to dig those chinese karate movies and dharam garam paap-ko-jalakar-raakh-kar-doonga movies. Slowly, I just got bored with them and started seeking new avenues. Still seeking.
Very absurd..very difficult to define
Who decides what is good what is bad..in a society if majority feel it is good then the verdict is good..as simple as that..beyond society is personal preferences.
rock on subject is totally different than MMJ, Wed’day n Tahaan…which were based on terrorism as backdrop…plus its a youth oriented…n goood songs…n ppl may be waiting 4 some good hindi rock songs which they got from this movie…
@16
After doing a lot of physical exercise, at the end of the day do you go for a 10-km walk ?
Similarly when you have used your brain for over 10-hours in the office coding and preparing excel sheets ,you don’t want to rake it again…….a govinda movie is much more preferable….
boxofficeindia.com says that A Wednesday is a success: http://www.boxofficeindia.com/boxdetail.php?page=shownews&articleid=428&nCat=box_office_report
My feeling is that exposure to more films like Tahaan and Mumbai Meri Jaan will change the audience. That change will not come overnight and it most likely will come at the expense of box office collections. I was not a big fan of old Hindi movies, especially the “art movies.” But it probably started to change after I watched Ek Ruka Hua Faisla (agreed it’s a copy of 12 Angry Men) on TV one lazy afternoon. I wasn’t as apprehensive about cinema of the 80s and looked for movies of that genre (courtesy Google and IMDB). I think it will take some time for the Indian audience to open up to new genres.
Right now, I feel that Indian producers are not reaching out to the NRI audience, especially the US. Here in the US, MMJ had a very limited release, probably playing only in major cities like New York and LA. I was lucky to watch it in NY and it saddened me that I was the only one in the theater (Tuesday afternoon show). They need to market such movies to NRI audience, get them into the theaters.
@11,I think crazyrals@9 has a point..During depression years in America survery after survey proved that people wanted to escape from the reality and found solace in all the escapist fare dished out by Hollywood.
Again vishal@12 also has a point..The majority of our population is in 20-35 demmographic..And it is looking out for entertainment, and if stories provide that fine..otherwise stars are enough..
And Anirudhya in ultimate analysis it has been and will be a mystery..what will click and what will not..We all are good like Met deptt.commenting on the weather 24hrs ago..
So make the movie that u believe in and let it find its own destiny..Its better that way.
Guys…I fancy that I may attempt an explanation…it is all about the word ‘Love’. Now, this word was, is and will ever be, a mystery. It is an indefinable ’something’ which is beyond words, but yet its effect is certain…it is like on the one hand, a marraige proposal/advt. for a prospective groom, for example…the rich popa goes head over heels in promoting and marketing his ladla offspring. He piles it on thick with all the means he has…money, position, status, his darling’s expensive foreign education, his good looks, his cultured nature, his love of beautiful women whom he will ‘respect’, etc., etc…he will leave no stone unturned to find the ideal bahu for his jigger ka tukda…no marketing tactic is left out…of course the bahu has to be ’strikingly beautiful’, highly educated, soft, refined, and if possible, glamorous too…a la Katrina, Priyanka, Kareena, etc., the present ‘ideal’ that dominates the psyche of the ‘educated’ but not the ’self-educated’ cash rich class(meaning that literature and the arts have no value above and beyond normal thinking…and so a critical sense has not been developed as a tool of discrimination)…now, from the opposite end, the prospective bahu’s papa will also be thinking along exactly the same lines! It may well turn out to be a comedy of errors, and usually does…but what the heck. That’s the way of the world! Besides, it’s the dominant desire of every dad.
The above is one type of a marriage…followed by the majority…the other type is based on ‘love’, that indefinable something that says–”To hell with your education, to hell with your credit cards, looks, expertise, status, biradari, connections, talents, smartness etc. I LOVE, and that is enough.
This was what has happened with Tarre Zameen Pe, A Wednesday, Rock On, Rang de Basanti and a handful of others that instantly struck a note with the general public…now, a hit is a hit, but with a difference…one type is due to that ‘indefinable something’ that cannot be explained reasonably…and the other type is a definite quantifyable formula (the raking in of tons of cash by means of hype, marketing and a virtual tsunami of publcity). But such formula films are like any business project of say, multinationals, who spend millions to rake in zillions.
What one loves, one loves without condition…the public simply came out of theatres of such films (made for the sake of films as an art) happy, with a glad heart, with a song on their lips and feelings of experiencing an event that will be memorable. The heart agrees with what it sees. While the other type, is successful for exactly the opposite reason–material.
The Public feels that it has got it’s money’s worth…there was their fav star, the heroine was so gorgeous and sexy, the jokes were rib-ticklng, the locales were mind-blowing, the sets grand, the music was artistic cacophony, the acting superb. In this, the public judges the movie by entirely different standards…of course the time-pass and paisa-vasool factor always helps in being attracted to a movie of the same type when it opens next Friday.
The example given above of the well-heeled papa to buy his ladla a bride of choice, is not restricted to the rich…
it equally applies to all…who, poor fellows, lack the luck but desire exactly the same thing in an even more passionate manner.
To my mind, it is a question of what type of an appeal the film makes…the material or spiritual, the sensational or the artistic.
And let us not say that the spiritual appeal is lacking in any human being…it is there, vague perhaps, but is capable of being evoked by sincerity and honesty of purpose…art for art’s sake…or money for money’s sake.
To conclude the above…the well-heeled papa is no other than the film producer with unlimited moolah, who, by effective and expensive marketing, receives responses in millions by prospective matches, who take the hype at face value.
The technique is nothing more than an aphrodiasical bait, a lure, but a lure that works everytime.
When TV channels put out a program titled ‘Flop bhi hit hai.’…meaning that even a half-week film reimburses itself…what then of a box-office hit…the cost of which would seem like small change compared to the truck-load of dough raked in.
how the people i know decided to watch rock on: The promos look good, good songs, looks cool, looks fun, timepass, different, FEEL GOOD, strong word of mouth (dekh le yaar achhi picture hai).
and why they decided not to watch MMJ, etc: ‘thanda’ promos, too serious, too real for comfort, no ‘entertainment’ value, no word of mouth, no one ever said ‘what a kickass movie it’s a must watch (the way I remember it happened with Chandni Bar)
Taare, Chak De, Rock On
Songs = Higher entertainment value + Opportunity to flood the numerous tv channels with ’sound’ promos.
No Songs + Good Movie = Avg hit.
thats right the question you have asked has puzzled most of us, at least now ppl should stop making meaningless cinema ,we have more businessmen in indian cinema than talented technicians but i strongly believe that there is a big wave of realistic cinema which could eventually change the taste of the audience…….
I think we need few friendly neighbourhood multiplexes/theatres which can survive without showing Big Banner movies in every town and village.
They can be tucked away in some peaceful corner and they can be also used for Film Clubs, Children Film Festivals…
Hi,
I have seen all of these films mentioned in your blog.. Although Mumbai Meri Jaan, A Wednesday, Aamir, Tahaan were amazing films on terrorism, Rock On was superior product talking about male bonding (which is great in India anyways) and their past desires and success… Although you might think songs were average because of Farhan, it was mindblowing on onscreen.. I simply adored the movie..
Plus, Other four movies requres publicity knowing small films and small characters, although they are superior products..
Nik
Well, Rock On is a big hit,Wednesday is a hit(considering the costs),Mumbai meri jaan also made profits and Tahaan may not be doing well in theatres but will surely be a hit in dvd circuit.Consider this scenario 7-8 years back.Can anyone imagine a film like Rock on,MMJ,Wednesday being made let alone be released?Producers would laugh if someone goes to them to make a film without any “heroine,any songs and with two actors over 50″!!!Things are changing,we have more awareness now but the change did not happen overnight.The process is slow.So dont worry.Tahaan will certainly get good response once it is released in dvd.Remember Blue Umbrella,Makdee?
Good movies which do not have the ‘conventional commercial value’ rely heavily on media – both mainstream and internet. What Rock On and Wednesday received was patronage from both mainstream and internet media. MMJ was supported by PFC and other internet media – but not that much by the rest of the media. There is a process of pre release publicity and sensitization that makers of movies have to do sometimes to a movie. Before TZP aamir gave so many interviews and created a buzz for an offbeat subkect. Rock On makers too created a buzz among the young pop loving crown of V channel and MTV viewers. For a movie like Tahaan this must be done heavily or one should wait for a DVD bang. In Thamizh films atleast the print press and the electronic media can be coaxed into writing great things about a good movie – whereas bollywood press and mainstream media national kill good movies by – not writing bad – but siimply remaining silent to a movie – This is a collusion to encouraging trash movies like SiK.
Till good movies can be publicized properly – public wouldn’t even know that there is a good movie running in a theatre nearby.
I do not know of the market at large but can analyse my own behaviour. I am not a hard core movie addict and do not eagerly await and catch everything shown. But I do like good movies and have seen quite a few of them recently. I normally wait for reviews, I rely on Rajeev Masand’s views rather than risk 2 hrs and 500 Rs for a bad movie. I have found a reviewer whose tastes match mine, say 90% of the time, I am willing to miss out on 10% of movies – which he liked and I did not and which I may have liked but did not watch because the review was bad. I first look at the stars he has given and if they are 3 or 4 stars I do not read the review and go watch the movie straight. Now this might not happen the same week as the movie is released in but all probability the week after. Tahaan had got 3 stars and Wednesday 4, I watched Wedensday the weekend it was released and thought of catching Tahaan the next week. But alas, it has moved to an inconvenient time by then – it was just 1 show in the afternoon. So I am now waiting for the DVD.
@Ram
500 for a movie ?? which city and hall you talking about…..in Bangalore you can catch a morning show for 110 bucks….
Also not meaning to be sexist here but chicks prefer to watch fluffy movies and that is a lot of pressure to overcome. Women might form 45-50% of your target audience but they impact the choices of an other 35%. So I suppose 85% of your target has an inclination for bright clothes, dimpled cheeks, love & Mush and foreign locales.
@ Vineet
spouse and moi + popcorn etc at the better mumbai theatres.
The Problem with TAHAAN was that it was released with other HATKE movies which has limited audience..
My 25 cents is that too soooon too many hatke movies were released back to back..Not to forget there were other routine movies as well..While the audience now prefers hatke movies, suddenly all the reviews in the media were saying W X Y Z all are fabulous movies..Tell me who gets the time to watch movies back to back unless and until you are a complete movie buff..
I agree with Ram, by the time you are finished with 1 movie, the other has moved to a different location or time..
As jaideep said in his other post, “request those interested in it to please see it this weekend itself as it may well be off theatres by next weekend, unless word-of-mouth builds up. ”
I dont want to sound pessimistic but i dont see a bright future for hulla as well..I hope iam wrong.. the audience is still waiting to catch the earlier movies.
Iam sure TAHAAN would have find its audience if it was marketed properly and released at the right time..
@ alone
ur absolutely right….
since last 5 weeks i ve seen five movies..
Mumbai Meri Jaan
Rock ON..
A wednesday
The Last Lear
Welcome to Sajjanpur…
all intelligent works of cinema and cinema that needs to be brought forward…
still i had to do decide against watching Tahaan and Hulla …..because of time and monetary issues though i wanted to watch them.
ek toh all these movies release only in multiplexes which have very high ticket prices…..so at the most u can watch one movie a week…..
they shud have released hulla next week…no point of releasing it with WTS……though i dont blame the directors for this……
may better sense prevail………..
I have a theory that people are suckers for films were the underdog wins. Star filled or starless. Case in point – IQBAL. The only known face in the film (at the time) was Naseer and Girish Karnad; not really stars who can draw crowds in. But the story was simple, had enough drama, humor etc. but above all it gave the audience a real “feel good” factor. The word of mouth helped.
Have not seen MMJ or Tahaan or Wednesday. I am sure they are good films and are getting their fair share of appreciation from the audience who watch intelligent films. Star value defnitely get folks into the theatre but both TZP and CDI are good films for that matter and (again)they tout the victory of the underdog:)
Rock On appears to be getting a lot of word of mouth among the movie going audience – teenagers, young adults – the ones who spend… Wednesday is too but more among the older crowd who usually prefer to wait it out on DVD…
Being an outsider both to India and India’s film world still in the process of learning how the industry works, I’m not sure how much I can contribute here. So, please be lenient with me:-)
First of all, I consider talking about commercial success or failure difficult without having reliable sources about the box office numbers, DVD and TV sales (India and overseas) as well as the true production costs (including promotion). So, I’m not sure how well-founded our arguments can be in this aspect.
I was wondering about the DVD sales anyway. Can someone shed more light on this issue? Until now, I always thought that among the various ancilliary markets (including also the soundtrack/songs CD and TV rights) DVD is by far the least important. Right or wrong? And how big is DVD in India nowadays? Which importance does it have for distributors/production companies? Are there any differences between mainstream Bollywood films and the more off-beat/independent or arthouse movies regarding the DVD? Are there films (like in the US) which are produced primarily for the DVD market with its theatrical run being rather a promotion tour for DVD release later on?
Coming to the main subject/question of this thread, as always, I guess it’s pretty complex with a number of reasons.
I, too, believe that marketing is one of the key factors. Basic for the distributor/PR people is to know and understand the product and what kind of audience it’s made for. For example, in Hong Kong, as almost everywhere in the world nowadays I guess, the teenagers rule the box office. So, if a more off-beat film is made rather addressing adults, but marketed in same the way as every other movie, of course, the film doesn’t succeed. Not only filmmakers need to be creative, but the PR people as well. Of course, it’s always a guessing game. Even in Hollywood with its numerous test screenings, market analysis and all this bullshit, there’s no guarantee.
Regarding the word-of-mouth phenomenon, the distributor basically decides on this, too. If they don’t give the film a chance and wait for the word-of-mouth to build up (like in the case of HULLA as it seems), how should the film succeed?
What I don’t understand: As far as the clich'© goes, India’s mainstream film industry is a high-risk industry with numerous flops all over the year – be it Bollywood or one of the big regional centres, right? And a lot of films are flops despite the fact that they have song/dance numbers, stars, so-called high production values, a comedy-track, maybe action and a healthy promotion budget. So, why not minimize the risk and make, let’s say, 3 or 4 smaller films? Wouldn’t this make sense commercially? I totally agree with Jaideep that the problem not only in India is mainly the lack of good producers and the lack of a concept/strategy in a company. Nowadays, producers are mostly corporate people and these people are usually not willing to take risks. What counts mostly is the fast buck it seems. Remember Hollywood’s studio era or New Hollywood? There were numerous producers/executives who were more famous than the directors, script writers or directors of photography, e.g. Irving Thalberg, Darryl Zanuck, David O. Selznick, Robert Evans or Bert Schneider. They were filmmakers themselves. I believe we need people like them. Interviewing a lot of Hong Kong filmmakers during the last 10 years or so, I’ve heard about so many projects which were cancelled or shelved. The producers, executives and bosses often chose the more commercial, less daring, less interesting ones. Of course, films don’t get made all the time, that’s natural, some projects succeed, some not. But it leaves a bad aftertaste somehow. Of course, there are exceptions to the rule. No doubt.
As for people being afraid of getting bored by more off-beat or arthouse films, I think we should distinguish here. Of course, the films mostly mentioned in this thread are different from the typical masala flick, but from my Westerner’s perspective (and maybe because of this I’m mistaken), most of them still carry commercial elements and are entertaining. I mean, we don’t talk about stuff like Tarkovsky, Tsai Ming-liang or Lav Diaz. While certainly nothing’s wrong with them (although I do hate Tsai’s extremely repetetive stuff), I’d understand if someone wouldn’t want to watch this kind of cinema after a hard day’s work. I, too, have to find the right time and mood to watch this. Meanwhile, I believe that films like HULLA are very entertaining and, thus, should be able to connect to a larger audience (despite the “lack” of big stars, song/dance, attractions, the difficulty of classifying it in genre terms and displaying kinds of humour usually not seen in a typical Hindi comedy). But may be it’s my own illusion.
South Korea was mentioned as possible good example for India (if I didn’t misunderstand). I beg to differ. Their film industry has been going down for a while now – both concerning box office, foreign sales and DVD. While everyone was astonished about the success just a few years back, the outlook has changed considerably by now. Furthermore, one of overseas festival favourite Kim Ki-duk’s recent films had huge difficulties in getting a regular theatrical run in his homeland (I don’t even know if it was shown at all). Of course, it’s also true that South Korea has very lively short film scene, but for independent/arthouse feature films it’s becoming more and more difficult – also because they decided to change their quota-system in favour of foreign releases (due to pressure from the US).
As for American Cinema during the Great Depression, I don’t think the picture’s so clear. Isn’t this also the time when the Warner Bros. became one of the major studios with their comparatively gritty gangster films like I AM FUGITIVE FROM A CHAIN GANG, ANGELS WITH DIRTY FACES or THE ROARING TWENTIES? Don’t forget the (Pre-Code) films whose naughty, dark, sometimes socially-relevant nature finally led to the establishment of the production code. If there ever was a period in Classical Hollywood Cinema where realism was king until New Hollywood was launched in the late sixties/seventies, I’d say it’s the 30s.
Stefan – Just wanted to comment on your DVD sales question, something that interests and intrigues me. I think DVD sales could make up a significant piece of the pie, if they were to be produced and marketed efficiently!
Our source for Indian films in the US is DVD mostly. For folks living in cities where independent films are seldom shown (outside LA and NY), this is usually the only avenue. To me that’s a good customer base just waiting to be tapped; it does require production and efficient distribution though… while the buzz for the movie is still alive. Instead what we get are pirated versions that are usually available within days of theatrical release since there is no mention anywhere of when the studio would release the DVD.
I don’t see the Indian film industry take steps to curb DVD piracy in markets outside India. Many of us surely feel guilty purchasing unauthorized DVD’s but its hard to resist the temptation. For example, Taare Zameen Par is perhaps the best Hindi film from 2007 (debatable of course) but there is still no official release of this DVD in the US. Now this is a relatively big budget film and has the backing of a big studio (PVR). Aamir Khan mentions on his blog that he has signed up a distribution deal with a US company to distribute the DVD here (I forget who but its a top tier studio) so the release has got further pushed back. That’s great and it would get the movie into Netflix and Blockbuster and give it an exposure beyond the desi crowd. But lets be realistic here – does he think the desi crowd here has resisted watching this movie on $2 DVD’s that were free available since last December?? That is his real revenue base but sadly he has lost a big chunk of that market due to his deliberation with the DVD release :(
Thanks, SJ, for taking your time to respond. Interesting! So, you’re not using mailorder companies like Nehaflix, Indiaweekly or one of the shops specialized in regional films, right?
As for the pirated DVDs: Are there really copies of the independent/arthouse titles as well? And aren’t they all a total pain to watch quality-wise?:-)
All in all, I guess you’re right. The copyright owners don’t seem to care much about DVD. What I’m wondering about: As you say, NRIs (and I guess a number of people in India as well) would buy official releases of those indie and arthouse titles, would they also pay a reasonable price for them? How are things like a decent master/transfer, a good DVD mastering, special features, in short things which are usually said to be important to film buffs/collectors, valued? What’s the attitude towards these things? As I understand that the strong position of cinema as venue is unique in India (and, therefore, the whole situation hardly being comparable to other countries), I’m just wondering about these things.
Not sure about others but there’s a reason I don’t go for movies with J&K background/ terrorism theme. The movie industry and media in India is generally left leaning liberal one, which totally goes against my sensibilitites. I watch movies for comedy/drama/time pass etc but when it comes to serious issues, I prefer reading/discussing them in other avenues.
Of course, there are always exceptions and I’ll keep an open mind for such movies but so far, the movie industry’s handling of these issues doesn’t inspire much confidence in me.
Stefan – Can’t resist harping on this topic since I have a sympathesizer now
I don’t use the websites you mention since movies are quite freely available in Indian stores and such. My local grocery store gave me a free copy (ripped) of “Singh is King” coz I purchased groceries over $25 !! Now try beating that ;)
With indies, you could find the newbies like the ones mentioined above but its the old ones that are virtually impossible to come across – pirated or otherwise.
As far as quality of official releases go (Indies and older movies)- they leave a lot to be desired. For example the Indian film Masoom, which was a huge critical and commercial hit of its time, has a disappointing transfer on DVD. Forget special features the transfer is too grainy, dark, bad sub-titles and just sub-standard all around! There was a company called Cinebella (John Mathew Matthan of Sarfarosh fame had some involvement here) that came into existence a few years back with the purpose of producing art-house films and bringing some older ones to DVD. They seemed to have disappeared now…at least I dont see or hear of them. But they did release some good titles .. quality was so-so (no anamorphic widescreens or digital transfers or “extras”). Some of these titles are available on Netflix.
You bring a good point as to the “value” of remastering DVD’s. I don’t think there exists a home video culture yet but with advances in newer technologies and its afforadbility – both in the US and India – this is slowly changing and people are actually buying or renting quality Indian DVD’s. I have seen some fairly good, clean rendering of newer Hindi films on DVD that make for a fun viewing in a home-theatre setting – DTS encoding, Anamorphic widescreen, deleted scenes, commentary, making of features… all that jazz.. But there is not much awareness though among the general public right now since it is too new and people are still adapting to the digital standard. Folks spend $2000 on a good LCD/Plasma and then feed it horrendous downloads thru You Tube, using their laptops :(
I have watched Mumbai meri jaan, rock on and wednesday…. Today as a viewer I am open to different kinds of cinema… however when economics come into picture and with proces of tickets so high and good movies gettign released quite every friday, it is hard to catch up every movie…. I agree and whatever Ihave read about Tahaan… it should be a good movie and infact I liked the concept of the story… but shelling out a huge sum of money for watching every good movie ( in a row four movies) is very difficult. So, here in lies the catch. There are good movies around and that needs to marketed well…. Johnny Gaddar to me is one of the best thrillers produced in bollywood.. but this movie was not a commercial success…. publicity of this movie was not upto the mark coz of which audience did not reach the theatres….
One important aspect to any movie is the name of the movie itself.. name should be catchy as well as understandable… I must admit that I did not understnad the meaning of word “Tahaan”…. may be my hindi is not upto the mark…. just liek perople did not understand the title 1942: A love Story… on the other hand Mohra was a hit that time… even though 1942 was a better movie in every aspect… So, there is no fixed formula for a successful film … but I feel… a very good script, with excellent direction, a relevant tilte to the movie and good marketting is a deadly combination.
Hear I would like to mention starcast is not important at all….. good script…. well directed & marketed movie works …. “Singh is King” is the latest example… AH this film not been marketed well… this movie would not have recovered its cost…. It’s aggressive marketting which saved this movie…
Just wanted to add my thoughts to Stefan & SJ’s discussion on DVDs.
Despite all sorts of discouragement for piracy, the ‘boot-legged’ prints for most newly released movies has improved over the years. Some 5 years back, the “cam” prints used to be quite horrible and used to have Pakistani ads. But lately, the first pirated prints have become very, very watchable and what’s more – no Pakistani ads. Something has definitely changed. The last movie I saw which didn’t have a great print was probably TZP. I feel that they aren’t shot inside a movie hall anymore and are probably a dumbed-down version, in the digital sense, of the original print. This has to be an inside job, as in from within the film unit ….. no? Has anyone else noticed the improvement in these pirated prints?
The market for Indian DVDs probably only exists overseas. I don’t live in India but whenever I have visited, I have seldom seen households owning or maintaining a DVD collection. Cable channels and providers broadcast an insane amount of movies all day long. New, recent, old, English – they have it all. And the market for indie English and foreign language films is still very small. Even overseas, I feel that people usually rent, rather than own, DVDs. Easier access to broadband Internet means people can download or view movies online, many of them streamed versions of the watchable pirated prints. One of the reasons DVDs are not really valued is that they hardly have anything besides the feature film and a few ads and promos of upcoming films. There are some exceptions, like TZP, which have interesting special features (I was only able to watch due to it being available on the Internet). But the creativity is still lacking; it’s the same old making of the movie, deleted scenes and promos. Very few have directorial commentaries; Rang De Basanti is one of the rarest ones to have it. Subtitles are usually word-to-word translations of the spoken language. Older regional Indian films still don’t have any subtitles. How do they expect viewers to maintain an interest in regional cinema if there is no medium of translation!! This really irks me because I have watched some really good Tamil films and friends have recommended some old ones too, but alas – they do not have subtitles!!
Pratik – agree. This has to be an inside job with most Hindi DVD’s, of late. I do see a stinker now and then but for the most part you get fairly decent quality. Had seen a fabulous copy of “Mithya”. .. can’t beleive I am saying all this on a forum fequented by filmmakers… sorry guys
I agree that most DVD’s are not valued cause they lack quality content and sometimes the very transfer (esp older films) is very poor. I had mentioned “Massom” in my earlier post. I recently watched “Jaane Bhi Do Yaaron” and “Parinda” that I had purchased on my last visit to India (Landmark or Planet-M). I think the free You Tube version was on par with what I paid for :(
@ SV & Pratik: Thanks your for comments! Those grocery stores do exist in Germany, too, but according to my experience they tend to stock mostly new Hindi mainstream films here. Furthermore, the prices range from 3-5 Euros and considering the horrendous or below-average quality, at least those sold in Germany are not worth it. Even if most of the pirated stuff nowadays are inside jobs, the German ones certainly don’t belong to those.
Meanwhile, I agree that the quality of the official releases, too, is sometimes far from perfect. The one thing I can’t get over is that even newer releases with a decent or good picture quality often have pixelation problems. And I don’t think this is acceptable nowadays. Having been enduring the crappy quality of Hong Kong and Chinese releases for years now, watching the stuff only on a non-anamorphic tube TV and no sound system to speak of, I’m certainly not the high-end customer. But the minimum is a decent print/transfer and proper mastering. For example, while it doesn’t concern me with my tube, I simply cannot understand why UTV put out JODHAA AKBAR as a non-anamorphic release (as it’s been widely reported).
As for special features, I agree that there’s much room for improvement, too. Especially considering that English shouldn’t be a problem, there have to be many more audio commentaries – unlike in Hong Kong where English is not spoken by sooo many people as one might think and, thus, audio commentaries are pretty rare on HK DVD releases. As for making-ofs, I’d only want something if it’s not the usual PR stuff. Also, interviews should be much longer in my eyes not only re-telling the plot and commenting on the colleagues’ grrreat work, but sharing genuine insights/stories about making the film. But I guess these are not only problems concerning the Indian releases.
By the way, another thing I’m wondering about are different versions of a film released theatrically/on DVD. For example, I’ve read that one song from RGV KI AAG being shown in the theatres was deleted for the DVD release. Also, it’s bewildering to read that there are several versions of PYAASA, all with different running times, on the market. So, for someone like me who might not have seen a film in the theatres and might not have read any coverage regarding censorship problems/changes of the theatrical version, it becomes a guessing game whether the DVD version is really complete.
I guess, an awareness of film as art form, as something which deserves to be preserved needs to build up. And, you’re right, there needs to be enough quality-conscious buyers for these titles, too. Also, involvement from the cultural institutions might be necessary (although I don’t know about NFDC’s and the archive’s efforts in this). Otherwise, I’m not too positive about restored and/or remastered classics in the future. In Hong Kong, too, people are still watching mainly VCDs or rent out DVDs/VCDs which are only allowed to be sold (pirated versions are almost not existing anymore). So, with this consciousness and indifference, it’s very hard to get your money back with remastered older releases. For example, some ten years back, the Hong Kong Film Archive has created a restored print of King Hu’s wuxia classic THE VALIANT ONES, but until today, no distributor has been found to put it out on DVD. It’s ridiculous. Meanwhile, I must admit that it was not a German company which first released German silent classics by Lang or Murnau on DVD. And, here, you do have enough (secured) government funding for such things.
On the other hand, what does amaze me about the Indian DVD market is the unbelievably wide selection available from films of the 50s until the very recent ones. Until a few years back, when the Shaw Brothers and Cathay began releasing some of their back catalogue, there were hardly any DVD releases of HK films prior to 1980 with English subtitles. I guess, apart from maybe Japan, no other Asian country has so many films from different eras available as India. And, Pratik, I’m not sure what you’re refering to, but companies like Ayngaran, Pyramid, API etc. did put out a healthy number of Tamil classics with subtitles (available at those regional mailorder shops I mentioned). Of course, I cannot vouch for the quality of those subs, but they appear readable and understandable to me (at least, most of the time). Just a few titles: ANDHANAAL, MADURAI VEERAN, UTHAMA PUTHIRAN, VEERA PANDIYA KATTABOMMAN, THILLANA MOHANAMBAL, PARASAKTHI, SERVER SUNDARAM, MOONDRAM PIRAI, MULLUM MALARUM, KADALIKKA NERAMILLAI, MOUNAM RAGAM, ABOORVA RAGANGAL, NAYAKAN as well as a pretty huge number of Bharathiraja films. Also, there are a couple of Kannada, Telugu and Malayalam classics, e.g. ONDANONDU KALADALLI, RANGANAYAKI, CHEMMEEN, HIS HIGHNESS ABDULLAH, SRI KRISHNARJUNA YUDHDHAM or most of Ram Gopal Varma’s earlier works. While the quality is sometimes hardly watchable and they’re, already for that, too expensive, at least there’s a chance to see those films at all (although some of them may be out-of-print by now).
PS: Sorry for always using Hong Kong as reference, but that’s the scene/market I believe to be most familiar with (strangely even more than Germany).
PPS: I didn’t know about Cinebella being also a production company, but I have some of their DVD releases. While you can easily critize them for the quality of the releases (although I’d say they’re still totally okay, also compared to others), they have a pretty good selection of titles. It really seems that they’re out-of-business by now which is a pity.
PPPS: Probably you know already: Two of the best releases of Indian films are from France: DEVDAS and SHOLAY, the latter being the CinemaScope version. Even I, not knowing any Hindi, bought them although they carry only French subtitles. In contrast to the Eros releases of DEVDAS, the aspect ratio here is more complete and the picture quality finally does justice to the filmmakers’ efforts regarding colour composition, mise-en-scène, art direction, costume design and so on.
Paul Newman has passed away.
Hello! Why is anyone comparing Mumbai Meri Jaan to A Wednesday? The acting is comptent, what else did you think was great? I mean if you call you selves appreciators of good cinema, is A Wednesday comparable by any measure? It’s a hit alright. The entire different concept is delivered through a single dialogue. That’s great to you?
What do you expect of distributors, when you put A Wednesday in the same bracket as Mumbai Meri Jaan. If Mumbai Meri Jaan was two percent better, it would have been historical piece of cinema. Nishikant Kamat and Neeraj Pandey… Why do you compare them? I mean look at the thought behind the camera in the Dombivali Fast and MMJ and do you see that in A Wednesday. What did MMJ try to do and what did A Wednesday do?
Kuch to soch ke baat karon yaaron.
really a strong and important question…but I feel that the answer is there for all of us to see…in fact more than a question to answer its a fact to accept…
hits and flops are decided depending upon the basis of how many ppl watch movie in theatres..now maxm. audience goes in pairs or groups…groups like friend circle or family…in families,as mentioned once above,children may just ask their parents to go for a movie bcoz it has a srk or a salman in it(non maskable interrupt)…wen u are less than 15 uare that kid wantin to see the movie of ur favourite star and about 10 years later u are the father taking ur son to the movie feauturing his favourite.In these 10 years,you often visit theatre as a friend circle…some people who wont appreciate serious cinema(they are a lot unfortunately) will anyway wont contribute to success of such movies,and others often dont watch such movies in multiplexes bcoz they prefer going with their friends instead to a relatively average movie.this is something that I have encountered often…my friends wanted to watch “rock on” and in a grp of 15,I was the only one who wanted to go for wednesday..since I do not belong to a compromising group this has meant that i have just watched “lrmb” in over 2 years of my college life..also recently there was no enthusiasm at all when I recommended “wts”..in fact this is another masterpiece which hasnt been appreciated..in fact people in their discussions almost never mentioned about it,though it is another work of brilliance….
there are to many reasons for relevant cinema not getting its due…the fact that many cannot appreciate it is a small apsect of it,the situational aspects to me are even more significant
I think Rock on, Chak de ,Taare zameen par etc worked because in some sense they all are feel good movies with an aspirational quality. The viewer wants to be the cool rock star or the succesfull coach. She/he wants to be the teacher helping a kid struggling with a learning diability.
This makes it easy to promote the movie and bring people into the theatre.Even A wednesday has that aspirational quality which might not have been as apparent as in the other movies. That might explain the slow start for that movie. But now i think its been declared a hit.
I must confess that i have not read any of the responses to this post so apologies if some one has already made a similar point.