Sholay – Anything you wish to change?
Nothing is perfect in this world. In science we always remain in search to improve the technology, quality of product, cost of production etc etc. But in art when a product is out then its there with all its positives and negatives. In novels and stories followups can be there but in paintings, statues etc no follow up is there. In films, sometimes remakes are there and very few times same film makers also remake their own old film to improvise the film.
[A] Most positive aspect of Sholay : No direct depiction of violence in a drama filled with dense feelings of revenge !!!!!
Sholay is the most adorable hindi film and it was far ahead in terms of technology at the time of its realease. It was a different way of story telling and it was a piece of art where so many emotions were involved in the contents of the story. Sholay is not monotonous in its flavour. It brings out all the 9 rasas before the audience which are required to fulfil the definition of a Natak (drama), as described by Bharat Muni in his old scripture ” Natyashastra“. Not a single “rasa” or “bhava” is left in Sholay.
And Director is so delicate and intelligent in his presentation of the film that we feel effect of violence but violence is not shown as a direct violence unlike violent films made in later years or these days. Only sense of violence is present.
(1) Remember the scene where Gabbar Singh escapes from jail and reaches to the village of Thakur Baldev Singh, he shoots all family members of Thakur Baldev Singh present in the house at that time. But what a style to capture the scenes and what an editing style. We see Gabbar Singh’s rifle, we hear sound of bullet and we see the victims falling in slow motion. We see a child (Master Alankar) coming out of the house and Gabbar Singh reaches to him. Though we all know its a film but our heart beats are faster and when somebody watches the film first time then he prays that perhaps Gabbar Singh will leave this child but he is Gabbar Singh (not to mention even watching nth times I wait to see a different version where perhaps Gabbar Singh leaves this child, as we have two endings of Sholay!!!!). Such terror was unseen before in indian cinema.
(2) Again when Thakur Baldev Singh reaches his village and sees the dead bodies lying on floor covered with white clothes. Not a single dialogue and eyes of Thakur(Sanjeev Kumar), Radha( Jaya Bachchan), Ramlal( Satyen Kappu) communicate with each other. How to deliver the pains through eyes one can learn from Jaya Bachchan in this scene. And again Director is so delicate that Thakur uncovers the face of his grand son but immediately scene is changed. Thakur’s hand is shown, white sheet is shown, Thakur removes sheet, its shown but face of child is not shown. This is height of symbolicism.
(3)Third violent scene- Gabbar Singh’s men capture Salim( Sachin) while he is going to Jabalpur and Gabbar Singh is shown lying on his cot near the fire and a bee is shown on the hand of Gabbar Singh. He is lying there like he is bored with the routine his eyes shine as soon as he gets to know that Sachin belongs to village of Thakur. Gabbar kills the bee and in next scene we see Sachin’s dead body on his horse.
(4) When Thakur is telling story how Gabbar Singh chopped his hands then Gabbar’s hands are shown with swords falling down to chop Thakur’s arms and suddenly film takes back us to present moment and we see Thakur re-living those unfortunate moments. His face expressions and falling down of his shawl from his shoulders!! He is revealed before Jai and Veeru. We dont see Thakur’s hands being chopped as we see in today’s films and yet we feel the impact of the scenes. Whole film revolves around the revenge boiling inside the Thakur and yet comedy, passion, compassion, sorrow, laugh and poetic love etc are there.
Sholay definitely brings the discipline in film makers how to show violence on screen and it should be mentioned and read in bold letters. When film makers have to use tommato sauce or ketchup then why to pretend that they want to bring reality in their scenes by showing chopped hands, head etc. For that CNN and other news channels are not sufficient?.
[B] Few Inconsistencies involved in the story of Sholay :
Inspite of all the brilliant aspects associated with the film, do you feel something is there which could have been changed?
I can recall few things little awakward in the film.
(1) When Thakur is chasing Gabbar Singh (in flash back when tahkur tells story of Gabbar Singh to Veeru and Jai) on horse then SK’s duplicate is riding the horse and its quite visible to audience that some scenes are with SK sitting on horse and when horse is running then its done by duplicate. their body colour and structure is so different from each other. A better cordination was needed in these scenes.
(2) Thakur says that Gabbar Singh killed his family two years ago and two years ago he is shown very young and with black hairs and moustache but within two years he is with complete white hairs. He has faced so big truama in life and this can be only explanation? or while doing dubbing they did this mistake that introduced the concept of 2 years though it could have been events of 4-5 years?
(3) Thakur’s arms are chopped but when shawl is not there on his shoulders then we can see his hands tied inside the kurta, his chest looks so awkward in the kurta. Now naturally film maker cant chop actor’s hands in reality but there could have been better way to deal with this factor. And why story writers and script writers gave stress on chopping the arms of Thakur? To justify the dialogue” ye haath nahin phansi ka phnada hai?. Did Salim Javed think, how Ramesh Sippy would be able to show a man without hands on screen and if they thought then how their minds searched justification that a man without hands can fight with a dangerous criminal like Gabbar Singh? Salim Javed ever tried to walk with shoes having nailes in the bottom? Nobody execpt those who have skill of skating or may be ice skating can walk with such shoes else anyone will fall down with a rate of once per minut if he is walking on stoned floor let alone rocks where level is not flat. And how a man without arms can stand up again if he is falling down? How a man without hands can give a flying kick to Gabbar Singh?
Was it not justified if Gabbar Singh was chopping the legs of Thakur or was making him blind? Armless Thakur is the weakest link in the script. His determination, will power everything is fine but he cant fight on rocks.
(4) Jaya Bachchan repeats several times “Apki do chutki wali rango kee thali”. 2 times repetition was more pleasent and good in story and twice repetition was not less to show her jovial and lively nature before marriage.
(5) There is a scene when Jai(AB) comes to Veeru(Dharamendra) and says that he also thinks to marry and settle down in life. Veeru asks him that a girl is needed for marriage and has he found any girl?
Jai: haan dekhi hai.Radha
Veeru: Radha, kaun ye radha?
Jai:haan
Veeru: Jai tera dimag to kharab nahin ho gaya hai, janta hai kaun hai wo?
Jai: haan janta hun, Veeru ajkal to chor dakuon ko dubara basne ke avsar diye jate hain, phir us bechari ka to koi dosh bhee nahin hai.
Here dialogues and direction are unable to describe that Dharmendra is astonished on the fact that Jai is unknown to the fact that he is a thief, a small time criminal and Radha is belonging to a highly respected Thakur’s family or Veeru is really astonished on Jai’s thinking of marrying a widow. Message is not clear. Scene is taken and cut in abrupt manner. a flaw in script?
(6) Nobody tells about chopped arms of Thakur to Jai and Veeru and Thakur has to tell this story as flash back. Or Script suggests that nobody in village was knwoing it before? this cant happen because whole police deptt knows this event.
When Javed Akhtar saab pulls leg of Vishaal Bhardwaj that Omkara’s story is based on conincidences and there are inconsistencies then perhaps he does not consider inconsistencies in his own written films. Mostly films stories are dependent on coincidences.
If Salim Javed were sparing themselves from the attraction of flash backs in Sholay then perhaps this coincidence was not needed. Story could have started where Thakur is carrying Jai and Veeru in carriage train and whole Gabbar Singh and Thakur’s sequence was then part of continuous story.
(7) Jai goes to Gabbar Singh’s den to save Veeru and Basanti. Why Jai throws his rifle away when he sees that Veeru and Basanti both are approaching towards the horse. Jai simply throws his rifle away before jumping down from rock to ride his horse. When Shallow members of Gabbar Singh’s gang can ride the horses with rifle in one hand why Jai cant do this? This simply does not make sense given range of Pistol he is holding in hands and knowing that Gabbar’s men will follow them and they would need a gun which has good range. Inspite of having Gun, Jai could have been shown killed, as after all his bullets were going to be finished or it could have been shown that somehow gun is dropped when he falls down from horse but throwing the gun at such point is beyond comprehension.
(8) Gabbar Sends a threat letter to villegers of Ramgarh with dead body of Salim, where he demands that villagers should force Jai and Verru to surrender at purani Tekrhi before Gabbar Singh’s men. Next morning we see two bodies are lying and Gabbbar’s men come on horse and one dacoit picks up a letter where only 2 lines are written ” Gabbar Singh, Tum yadi ek maroge to hum char marenge“.
Now listening this letter one dacoit says” are dekh to lo dono wahin hain ya kisi aur ko markar pehnk diya hai“.
Do these dialogues make any sense in story? Why Villagers will write” Gabbar Singh, tum ek maroge to hum chaar marenge” when they are killing their own men (Jai and Veeru)??
This note was perfectly fine with the next scene when Jai and Veeru leaves one Gabbar man wounded who takes that letter to Gabbar Singh. Letter should not have been shown with bodies of Jai and Veeru.!! Period. As it reduces the effect of next scene as audience already know whats written in the letter Gabbar#s man is carrying.
Do you recall any such or other inconsistencies in Sholay?
Not to mention that inspite of flaws this is still most adorable film and most satisfying experience of watching a film.
Anurag Kashyap
Abhay Deol
Dibakar Banerjee
Hansal Mehta
Khalid Mohamed
Kundan Shah
Anish Kuruvilla
Jaideep Verma
Manish Gupta
Navdeep Singh
Bhavani Iyer
D. Santosh
Onir
Ashvin Kumar
Ramu Ramanathan
Sudhir Mishra
Pankaj Advani
Revathy
Saurabh Shukla
Shilpa Shukla
Sujoy Ghosh
Suparn Verma
Santosh Sivan
Shashank Ghosh
Shivajee
Pavan Kaul
Partho Sen-Gupta
Prroshant Naryannan
Sam Langoria
Satish Kasetty
Good one! You have delved into some ignored aspects of a hugely popular movie.
But you could have split it into 2 posts, one on the violence aspect and another on inconsistencies. Regarding the latter, I think we should realise that ultimately Sholay is a masala movie and the screenplay will have its share of loop-holes…
randramble: Thanks
sorry:(, this post and my other posts are also like hindi films, going in any direction without any planned boundaries where they will reach!!:)
Sholay is a good film and I am afraid to use categories of masala or arty films. Obviously Ramesh Sippy did his best in available means and story and script. He was just 25 when he made Sholay. More responsibility goes to Salim and Javed. Duo wrote the scenes in that particular manner and Ramesh Sippy captured those scenes in motion. I am 100%sure that if Ramesh Sippy was having facilities like today’s film makers have when they can see the whole day’s shooting on their computer in the evening then Sholay could have been more near to the perfection:)
RK bhaiya kya baat hai! Enjoyed your description and agree to everything you said. In films there are flaws. Even Hollywood has plenty of them!
You do have a good eye indeed bud. How many times have u watched Sholay, just curious?
You would make a good continuity AD for sure;)
Manjeet:
Can’t say exact number but perhaps whole film (start to ending) 15-20 times. With new ending showing Thakur killing Gabbar, only 3 times.
:d
When you learn all the technical aspects of films then we will make a film on original story written by OZ, and Direction by a team of PFC players. A unique experiment in history of cinema.
So pls learn your technical things minutely. Only few members on PFC are able to talk abt these technological aspects of a shot taking:)
Most of these plot inconsistencies can be easily explained. I gotta say that’s a lot of nitpicking.
8. The letter is just there for dramatic pause, and makes gabbar’s men go WTF before they go down in a hail of slow-motion gunfire.
7. Jai throws his rifle away because he’s in a movie. Obviously no one would survive jumping onto a horse from that height (and neither would his balls). Jai probably wanted to make sure that when he hit the horse from that height, his hands wouldn’t have a rifle in them that would buck up from that kind of force and break his jaw.
6. No one thinks to tell Jai and Veeru because most probably don’t know. I don’t think thakur ever told anyone, not even the police. He had ramlal do all of his work for him, and he met everyone covered in a shawl. The only time outside his family knows is when he reveals it to jai and veeru. News like that wouldn’t take a long time to reach the police department.
Regardless, even if everyone knew, everyone would expect jai and veeru to know about it. Its like being a soldier in iraq and not knowing about 9/11. I mean if a yokel villager from the backcountry knows, why wouldn’t thakur’s top men know his reasons for revenge.
5. Veeru and Jai are obviously friends. If they cared much about societal boundaries, they wouldn’t be criminals. If Jai wants to marry radha, then beyond a few questions, why would Jai care. Regardless, Jai pays the price in the end.
4. This one is just outright nitpicking. Not worth a response. Go to a high school or MTV’s TRL and say that with a straight face again.
3. Maybe thakur put on weight. It would be naive to believe those swords cut his arms off clean. I’m sure there was some hacking and chopping involved. That explains the bulgy kurta.
Um…cleats?
I can’t tell you how many times I’ve traveled on trains in india and had to fight for my life with robbers on horses that could keep pace with a train for long periods of time. It’s a movie.
2. Again, unnecessary nitpicking. He had salt-pepper hair. Maybe he dyed them during his time in the PD, for PR reasons.
1. They’re in longshot, they did the best they could. I don’t think it killed the scene.
Let’s nitpick about the use of dynamite next. You can’t blow up dynamite by firing a pistol at it. You need a detonating fuse to ignite the powder inside the sticks. A stick of that power would have taken out the bridge altogether, and Jai should have chunks of wood in his torso, with massive internal bleeding. He wouldn’t even be able to talk, because his lungs would be filling up with blood.
Also, the Lee Enfield rifles everyone was using were bolt-action, not semi-automatic. So you’d have to physically cycle the rounds after firing.
Actually, most of the scenes that you have listed as being the linchpin scenes of the film were either due to censoring or pre-empting the censor or obvious choices.
The killing of the child is directly lifted from Once upon a time in the west, with the gunshot turning into the sound of a train, although less noticeable in Sholay.
I find thakur’s castration scene a far better example of symbolism in the film, also going back to the haath nahin phansi ka phanda hai. I think that’s pretty good, because its the Thakur’s hubris talking, not the cheesiness of the writers. He’s just got the criminal of the century, how else would he talk? His moment of pride also sets him up for the fall later with the destruction of his family.
More on that here. http://www.anangbhai.com/?p=219
I know its a total plug but wtf.
Anangbhai:
Nobody in village knows about chopped arms of Thakur before he tells his story? Not even police?
Perhaps even Radha does not know because as you said Ramlal is the only person who knows this seceret because he helps tahkur in his daily life activities:)
For you a scene- Om Shiv Puri(Police Inspector) goes to village for investigation and raises his hands to do shake hands with Thakur and then realises his mistake.
Well defense buddy, perhaps Salim Javed could not have defended in such a way:d
DAMN! Ya got me. Still, my soldier in iraq analogy works. If a dumbass villager knows, then jai and veeru must know. They never asked anyone about thakur and his problem with gabbar and no one told them because they assumed at least these guys would know.
- I don’t think any villager knows about Thakur’s chopped hands except Ramlal and Radha – that’s the reason they keep silent when Veeru and Jai are angry on Thakur after Gabbar’s Holi attack on the village.
Oz: for that logic even Radha and Ramlal remains silent when Veeru is scolding Thakur for not picking up and giving him the gun falling near him.
That can be out of respect that nobody interefers in that scene.
Whole village is there, when Thakur sees dead bodies of his family members and asks Ramlal – Gabbar? and then he rides on horse with revenge boling inside. Whole village sees him going towards Gabbar Singh’s den. Though its a film but even then when Gabbar Singh has chopped Thakur’s hands then somebody might have carried him to hospital. He might have given any reason to leave his govt. job. He simply cant send Ramlal to IG office to say ” Thakur ne naukari se isteefa de diya hai”. This is India where rumours spread faster than speed of electron. Whole police deptt. knows it. Why Gabbar Singh will not send this message that he has brought down his enemy Thakur in right size and others should be aware before they try to raise their heads against him. His men are regular visitors to Ramgarh to take money, wheat and other food items and only after hiring Jai and Veeru Thakur comes to stop them.
Only reasoning I find of this lacking is -
Because shooting normally does not happen in the sequence we see in the film and depending on the means available they plan shooting of scenes and in this disorder of shooting the scenes and later editing mistake has eaten this point.
It would have been a wonderful event if some day Salim Javed and Ramesh Sippy come in a program where they answer questions related to Sholay.
OZ, Bro, This doesnt make sense – such a major tragedy in his family and everyone knows but no body knows that thakurs arms arent there? I mean, after getting his hands choppped off, Thakur would have come back to the village and / or gone to a doctor, + in 2yrs there must have been lots of occassions for the villagers to know…( spoken like a true movie critic heh heh;-) )
I think that it was another cinematic liberty taken by Sri Ramsh Sippy.
Waise, I kept thinking that Asrani’s jail was in a god forsaken place – when veeru and jai leave, the only guard outside is called in and is knocked out cold. They go out, lock the gate and give the key to Ass-rani (inside). How and when were the jailor and his guards released? Again – pure idle thinking by yours truly!
Anangbhai:
Recall, the scene where Jai and Veeru coming out of jail and Thakur is there to recieve them and when Veeru says are jailor saab aap, Thakur says, mein ab jailor nahin hun keval Thakur Baldev Singh hun.
Jai; kynon khatron se khelne ka shauk chala gaya?
Jai and Veeru had seen him fighting with dacoits on his own and they know he has been a brave police officer and they would not become curious to know, when Thakur hires thme to catch Gabbar Singh for him, that why he himself does not try it? Jai even asks him “koi purani dushmani?”
Jai and Veeru are not foolish they will definetly try to know the reality of Thakur. You are right that villagers will be having logic that like we know they two will also be knowing. but here question is curiosity of Jai and Veeru.
Sophocles: various possibility are there. small window is there in the big gate ans policemen can call anyone from there:)
Phone is also there in jail and they can call nearest police station and thats why when Jai and Veeru reaches to Soorma Bhopali, police arrests them again:d
heh heh…true…makes sense…:)>-
Remember, gabbar says that “saari duniya tujh par thookegi”. (for some reason that part in the movie sounded completely un-gabbar like, he was almost monologuing like Thakur in the previous scene. Almost as if he was speaking in a theater…)
Gabbar wants the entire world to know who it is who did this to thakur and he wants the world to laugh at this crippled man. So he would have made sure to give thakur the proper medical attention. With a torniquet, it wouldn’t be all that hard to stem arterial bleeding, and I’m sure sambha had a medical degree.
After making sure that Thakur is not in danger of dying, they would have dropped him off in the village square, for the entire village to look at.
I do believe now that the entire village knew. But why would some lower-jati villager ever want to point out to the emperor that he has no clothes. Its an issue that’s just not discussed.
When your entire family is massacred, and you’re in a hospital bed because your arms have been cut, it would be kind of rude to expect you to come in to give your resignation, and they can’t even ask for his thumbprint.
Jai and Veeru are curious, but they are being paid well for the job. Like I said, everyone would expect them to know why they’re fighting, so no one would ever say, “Kitni dukh ki baat hai” and initiate a flashback. They wouldn’t ask because they don’t think anyone knows. I’m sure they would have gleaned some details, but the full story is just something no one would ever want to talk about.
They should get the criterion people on creating a DVD for sholay, or at least send a print to america for dvd creation. It needs a better release than it’s gotten so far. India’s first 70mm film should have a kickass dvd.
i didn’t want amitabh to die…sob sob
Anangbhai: its hilarious to read your MTV kind version of Sholay:). like they made Ghoom for Dhoom, yours Sholay version can also be made as Pholay. You are righht Sambha must be a personal physician for Gabbar Singh, he cant be having MBBS degree but perhaps he was a RMP, before he joined profession of Dacoits. Thats why Gabbar Singh always talk through him, whenever Gabbar needs something he calls “Sambha”. Sambha is Deputy of Gabbar Singh and its amazing that this charcater hardly has more than 2 dialogues in film.:)
Illuzion:
Thakur lost hands and his sons, grand son, daughter in law. Jai lost his life. Gabbar Singh went to jail/ lost his life. Veeru got Basanti and inspite of giving wonderful performance, Dharmendra was shadowed by charcters of Jai, Thakur and Gabbar Singh. Jai and Thakur got sympathy votes, Gabbar Singh got dramatic votes. Veeru was given Basanti so that he marries her, raise children and recite them stories of Jai, Thakur and Gabbar Singh. Ramesh Sippy should have planned a Sequel but perhaps phenomenal succes of Sholay, stopped everything.:)
wow! some very good observations here