The “Business” case for non stars!!
Hi Folks,
When I had completed my debut script and started to call on the production houses (actually two), got a favorable response right away based on the concept, and then the script (cause I am confident of that part). However, when talk of the actors came up, one of them suggested names like Priyanka, Hrithik, Abhay….now I don’t want to sound full of myself and I can’t say that the script made it in front of them, but actually I declined there and then. This whole, “guaranteed return on actors,” or “x sells and y does not,” to me is like total HOGWASH, of people (including filmmakers from the Mumbai system), who ”claim” to know it all. Well my question to them is “then why do you make so many flops?” if you have “mastered the crystal bowl?”
And here is my counter argument(s):
A study of the years 2006 and 2007 reveals some interesting case scenarios:
The definition of a “hit” or commercially successful film, is quite vague. A film showing a overall return of Rs 5 crores ($1.2 m) in the first week, can still be a “flop” if the cost to put it together, was Rs15 crores ($3.8 m). The cost in most cases goes that high because of the excessive “star” salaries and the resultant overheads (not surprisingly at times 50% to 65% of the cost).
The landscape of pure play Bollywood, has gone for a significant change in the 2006-2007 time frame. The films say it all and the collections add to the tone. The commercially successful film of this period, were the following:
Dor, Khosla Ka Ghosla, Guru, Namaste London, Bheja Fry, Honeymoon Travels, Chak De , Partner, Johnny Gadaar (at least in the US), Guru and Dhoom 2. Of these, Dor, Khosla Ka Ghosla, Bheja Fry, Johnny Gadaar and Honeymoon Travels, were devoid of any “stars” and these films, were sold and made, more for their solid scripts and fine actors, as opposed to traditional stories and star actors. The above also represent a success percentage exceeding 50%. This represents the totally successful films divided by the totally made films in that genre/space.
Now let us concentrate on the larger, big budget, star laden films. Here the successes of the prior year are, Namaste London, Chak De, Guru, Partner and Dhoom 2. When we compare this to the total number of films made and sold in the prior year, in that genre/space, we get a success factor of approx 17%.(i.e. the sum total of successful films from a return on investment perspective, of ,5, divided by the total number of films with big actors or “stars” during that time, i.e. Nishabd, Ram Gopal Ki Aag, Tara Rum Pum, Jhoom Barabar, Guru, Chak De, Partner, Dhoom 2, Red, Awarapan, Marigold, Kabul Express, Anthony Kaun Hain, Cash, Eklavya, Fool n Final, Naksha, Cheeni Kum, Laaga Chuenri Mein Daag, Umrao Jaan, Baabul, Kaafila, Big Brother, Teesri Aankh, 36 China Town, Humko Tumse Pyaar Hain and Provoked
Total commercially successful films in 2006 are
a) Zinda
b) Munnabhai
c) Don
d) Rang De Basanti
e) Kkrish
f) Dhoom 2
g) Fanaa
A total of 7 in a year that saw all of approx 200 films releasing. All of these had big actors and big budgets (most well in excess of $1.5 million or more), giving a return on investment of approx 15-25%, which classified it as a major year for Bollywood.
Now shifting the focus to what happened in the landscape, towards the end of 2006 and 2007 till date:
Total commercially successful films towards end 2006 and beginning 2007 are
a) Dor
b) Khosla Ka Ghosla
c) Honeymoon Travels
d) Chak De
e) Bheja Fry
f) Johnny Gadaar (agian in the US, not sure of status globally)
g) Namaste London
h) Guru
i) Gangster
Of these only Guru and Namaste London had big actors. All the remainder had solid actors, although not necessarily stars.
Some of the biggest flops (that is lack of return on investment) for 2007, had some of the biggest actors. These were:
a) Jhoom Barabar Jhoom
b)
c) Ram Gopal Ki Aag
d) Nishabd
e) Cash
f) Red
g) Nehle Pe Dehla
h) Awarapan
i) Marigold
The above throws us some interesting statistics:
Total number of non stars, film made in this period: 10
Total number of commercial successes in this period: 5
Total number of star type film made in this period: 78
Success ratio with non stars: 50%
Success ratio with stars: 6%
So I rest my case!!! Oh and not sure what the equation was with Black Friday, but perhaps PFC can throw some light, I think it was a “commerical success,” so add that to the pot here.
Finally on another note saw Om Shanti Om last night and have to say I was dissapointed. Sure it was entertaining, but not as “brilliant” as it has been hyped up. In fact the second half seemed very “forced,” and “andrew loyd webberish.” Plus Ramphal as a good guy is moderate, but the bad guy almost always has to be a brilliant actor, and he makes a bad, bad guy.
Also will be in Mumbai from Nov 23rd to Dec 2nd in case anyone from PFC wants to physically beat me up!!! Long drawn arguments, over coffee, I am not into, since I find that a waste of my time, as action speaks louder than words and arguments . Plus I believe in spending the argument time observing people (as in real people, not necessarily the filmi sorts) so that I can write real scripts, making the water go purple has never been me nor my writing…unless pollutants of the real kind make it to the Arabian Sea.
Sincerely,
Vivek “anyone, but anyone saying in Mumbai, they know what sells, other than SRK, is about full of crap” Kumar
Tags: Production
Anurag Kashyap
Abhay Deol
Dibakar Banerjee
Hansal Mehta
Khalid Mohamed
Kundan Shah
Anish Kuruvilla
Jaideep Verma
Manish Gupta
Navdeep Singh
Bhavani Iyer
D. Santosh
Onir
Ashvin Kumar
Ramu Ramanathan
Sudhir Mishra
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Revathy
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Suparn Verma
Santosh Sivan
Shashank Ghosh
Shivajee
Pavan Kaul
Partho Sen-Gupta
Prroshant Naryannan
Sam Langoria
Satish Kasetty
Vivek
your post is awesome vivek.whole bollywood industry is like Jagannath & sons,and once in a while a guy like srk breaks in.But have faith in your work bro…what I feel is the script and budget is the real star.
sanjay
Thanks for the kind words Sanjay. Much appreciated. While this is going to sound like being full of myself (but I am stating things as they are) I am not so much worried about my own film, cause a) I have almost secured the financing from a prod house in LA, b) is something goes wrong there, my day job, Sarbanes Oxley is going through a “dot com” phase so can on a worst case self fund or c) have access to some private investors in Silicon Valley (not TiE types, less hype and more serious), the issue I was trying to raise is my anger against the so called “we are experts in how to make successful Bollywood films,” who are floating all over Mumbai and LA and this includes filmmakers, production houses, etc. Actually in the panel I recently did in LA, almost everyone (we had close to 35-40 people) agreed with my analysis above.
Vivek bhai, I must say that I do agree. Stars alone don’t make a film successful. And films without stars can definatly run, especially in todays day and age.
I recently read something about how “Johnny Gadaar” has proven to be a greater success than “Ek Hasina Thi”. Not sure of how that success is measured, ROI or overall box office or praise or what not. But the statement in itself reflects the changing face on Indian cinema. That despite awesome performances by Saif & Urmilla and despite it being such a brilliant film, Ek Hasina Thi did not work well with audience.
It shows that today its not just the stars, its the overall perception a film gives through its pre-release hype that plays a huge part in determining whether or not the film will be successful.
Word of mouth publicity, post the films release can significantly help or hurt a films box office performance, for sure, but somehow I’m convinced that most of the audience make up their mind on whether they want to watch a certain film or not even before its release.
If I were to rank the factors that draw audiences towards a film, I’d put them in this order:
1) Awareness. How many people know of the film and when its releasing? The more people it reaches, the more people are likely to talk about it. The more talking about it, the more interest it will generate and thus the cycle continues to attract more and more people to the film.
2) Subject/Story. If audiences aren’t attracted to the films premise, or if they’re unsure regarding what the film is about, they aren’t likely to go watch it regardless of who stars in it. I think this is why certain films, though well made and well acted, haven’t done as well as they perhaps should have.
3) Star Power. Whether you and I like it or not, it IS a huge factor. Take Shahrukh out of Om Shanti Om and replace him a talented actor like a Sanjay Suri or a Jimmy Shergill, you can still get a good film and all, but it will not generate the same kind of hype nor the same kind of interest in the film, and therefore the chances it that film hitting it bigtime are significantly reduced. I agree that it may not be the only determining factor, and yet there is no substitute for star-power either.
- The overall ambiance/mood the films posters/promos give off. Is it a happy film? A dark film? A serious film or an entertainer. Everything from the color palette/scheme to the style of promo images to even the font type says something about the film. Trust me, audiences today are very media literate and can pick up on a films “vibes”.
Given the above I believe quite strongly that marketing a film well (with or without star power) is a huge a factor in determining its success.
Man.. I need a spreadsheet to slic and dice this data. may be you should sell it to taran adarsh or should I call him ratan reimburse??
I agree, but chak de had shahrukh, the biggest actor in bollywood, you didn’t mention that.
Also if they call it commercial success it is because of the budget to profit ratio. Jhoom made 30 crores but the cost was 30 or more so it was flop, where as bheja fry made 6-8 crores based on 60 lakhs budget. Now if bheja fry was made for 30 crores it would have been flop.
I know if you change one thing everything changes. but nothing wrong for the sake of argument.
Absolutely Dhirendra, I have taken Chak De in my total list of films and included it in the BIG films. Also one of the very reason the cost goes up is because of these stars. Jhoom’s cost was 30 or more because of the very stars. So I rest my case.
Hi Vivek,
Is this your first script ? U said u have a day job so I am assuming so.
I totally agree what script is everything…but look what happened to
Yahaan..a beautiful script but not so happening actors
Life mein kabhie kabhie ..nice movie but so so actors
I think I would put it like this…right script + right buzz = hit
many think that right buzz is star value, but really it can be anything..frankly I didn;t want to see bhool bhulaiya because i got tired of similar acts in all priyadarshan’s movie, but I went for the song hare rama and recommendation from my malayali friends(for the malyali movie was great).
So I think you can offer them a bound script and a bound promotion strategy
Hi Playback,
I have completed a 1.5 year certificate in scriptwting from UCLA and topped that class, but that does not mean anything in the real world. Subsequently I have written two plays, one, recently which, marked the directorial debut (stage) of noted Art Director, Sharmishta Roy, but yes, this is my first feature lenght script which I am planning to make into a film. I am a CPA and a Chartered Accountant by day job and don’t think I will ever give that up, cause it puts me in touch with real people and real situations, whom I find way more interesting and potential subject matters, than film people or creative people. Also it keeps me grounded and gives me a sense of balance, plus I love my day job as much as l love scriptwriting. In case my script goes anywhere I might move back to my former hometwon of Mumbai, but also keep a “non filmi” life. In fact since I developed as a scriptwriter, I have actually lost my apetite to see movies and prefer spending more time doing mundane chores…not sure why. Sorry long answer to a short question.
Agree Dhirendra, with your analysis. Although still not sure what is the right amount of marketing. TO me nowadays it seems excessive marketing. Two movies which came to my “workout television (attached to the treadmill in the gym I workout at)” everytime I put it on, was Saawariya and No Smoking and neither of them I have seen, since I sufferred from a “marketing burnout,” aka the syndrome of seeing ads playing all the time, where the desire to actually see a movie diminishes, because all I see and hear, are their ads!!
Vivek, I must tell u I always followed and liked ur matter-of-fact, uncluttered and to-the-point writing….Here’s wishing u all the best for ur script and ur film and hopefully very soon u will be writing in PFC under the Exclusive column…:)
Thanks Maruramu,
I will take the best wishes, but humbly pass on ever wanting to write under the Exclusive column:)
and no disrespect to either you, or PFC or the folks who write there, but more, knowing me, that will mean the beginning of the end for my scriptwriting development. I guess while creating SAAFA and writing scripts, I have discovered who I am and who I want to be and I always want to be a straight jacketed, gelled hair, living a structured life, among real people, CPA centric, scriptwriter….and that is who I am and that is what I always want to remain….but as I said, I will gladly accept your best wishes and thank you for that one more time.
Cool !
Thanks for the response Vivek. And I love long answers.
And, ( if i am not getting on your nerves ), how did you go about approaching Ms Roy or the film houses with your scripts ? Just wanna understand the channel and if you could share your experiences going through it.
Regards
I don’t take that as offense or disrespect…I take it in the right spirit
Thanks Maruramu. It was like in the movie JaaneMan, there was that scene, a really powerful one…the who am I scene?, when Akshay looks long and hard in the mirror and decides that ,no more games…if he is meant to be Agasthya Rao, then he will be Agasthya Rao, consequences be dammed (by the way I’m not a geek, but the point being, that it is the realization moment of “I am who I am.”)
Which goes to your answer Playback, I can honestly state that most of my breaks have come in life, when I did not play up to anyone, but was more myself…when I did playup, nothing worked out. Ditto with Sharmishta, did not ask her to write her script. Was running an event for SAAFA in Stanford, was approached by Sharmishta’s spouse, we connected, over the years a gradual friendship developed, neither party holding back any views, positive or negative and then when I wrote a play last year, Sharmihsta helped with the sets, then this year she decided she wants to direct, asked me to write the script for her, I did, and Ehsaas was created. That is the long and short, not holding back anything in my answer. I tend to be outspoken in my ways and life, so I guess if people can overcome that, then most of my friendships tend to last for long.
Thanx Vivek. Wish u all the luck.
Oh and the film production houses, actually I jsut sent an email with the synopsis and got called. In two days. One blasted me, for taking smaller actors, in front of the actors–showed me the dark side of Bollywood (aka they asked that I consider Priynaka for the role,which I am hell bent on casting Barkha Madan), I took the blasting and politely declined. The other one, was very courteous and asked me to “consider” dropping Priyanshu and Barkha, because they did not sell, but I can be quite a stubborn guy once in a while and I decided to say no.:) As you can tell I love making things hard for myself.
I am all with u for what u believe.
Thanks Playback, actually it is kind of awesome, since I took Barkha to the roadshows in Chicago, SF and LA and since the realization dawned on people that I am not changing my “actor” cast, the amount of positive, best wishes I have been getting, is quite astounding and invogorating. I will include you in that Playback and let Barkha also know when I meet with her in Mumbai, next week. In fact my actors now have more positive energy than me and I am often scolded by Barkha when I make a joke on me, about my script. Thanks!! is all I can say. This momentum will carry us through:)
btw did u zero in on any director yet who would connect with ur script???
Not yet finalized, but a strong possibility is Sanjay Talreja. Reason. He has idealogical differences with my script, so that will be exciting. About Sanjay:
He is a Masters in Filmmaking from Ohio, formerly taught in XIC in St Xaviers, did a film appreciation course from FTII, made coprorate films in Mumbai, did not like that . Moved to the US. Worked for a media based not for profit in Mass. Has a 100% success rate in obtaining funds for his docs from Soros Funds and Sundance Funds. Moved to Canada, taught filmmaking at Univ of Windsor. Got funding from NFB Canada to make a couple of other docs, one called Cricket and the Meaning of Life, whihc won an award at the Reel World Festival. Currently in Mumbai making a high powered doc for CBS. Has over 25 years of filmmaking experience. A bit of a “sanki.” Did not show up for his own marriage (along with his spouse) cause both felt it was too “ostantacious,” growing up in Mumbai would often get into fist fights. We look at the creative world totally different. He is about festivals and films, I am about audicne and cash. He loves Aamir, I like SRK and his loudness. He likes Canada, I like the US. He dislikes Mumbai, I love it. Yet we both love my script and our friendship has survived 21 years despite having totally different tastes. When my dad passed away on the NSCI tennis courts in Mumbai (I was in the adjoining court), he was the first one to lift his body and try to revive him…….he is a person I trust more than I trust me…yet neither is doing this for emotions, we both love the script and want to see it enacted in our respective ways, which is totally different…I think…it will be a creative battle which I am looking forward too. IT’S TIME I”M READY, LET THE MATCH BEGIN…
Should be a fun project. He is meeting Barkha today or tomorrow, to see if they can gell.
so good to hear that….
Do stay in touch. U can reach me at playback2007@gmail.com
Interesting analysis n statistics,Vivek.Good luck with your project.Can relate with some of your replies here.BTW, why isn’t Life in a ..Metro included in the post?
Will do Playback, where are you based? Thanks Gayatri. You are right I should include Metro, I believe it did make a positive RoI. Not sure where to categorize it, because Dharmendra is in it, but I guess if I put Johnny Gadaar in the small film category (despite Dharam), then will do the same for Metro. Thanks for the best wishes.
Best of luk man,, acchi acchi film banana : nice research : aur haan film release ho jai uske baad script yaha PFC pe post kar dena [:D]
vivek,
good luck. I’m in New York. If you are ever this side or even otherwise, please drop me a line. I am in the process of raising money for a film myself and don’t know my ass from my nose. If i remember correctly, the budget of your movie is under $1MM, whereas mine is $2.5 MM due to the extensive makeup and effects needed.
Care to shed some light on how you went about and any tips you can share?
Thanks
Dabba garu, am in CT. Will be in the “city” often. How abt a chat over a coffee sometime? let me know. :-)
where in CT? sure thing. But let’s make the coffee irish.
Thanks Nikhil, with all the backing of the folks that I have interested in my project, the one thing in common with all of them, is that they are a bunch of no nonsense well wishers, so they will keep me and the project honest. Then it is up to the audience. But, hopefully, like I did in the play Ehsaas, will be able to face the verdict come what might, rather than run away from it.
Thanks dabba, used to come to NYC a lot, but of late because of frequent Mumbai trips, NY has taken a back seat, but will be sure to be there soon. Funding is the hard part, won’t lie about it, and the hihger the amount the higher the risk of refusal, but then things do fall in place eventually. So all the best to you too.
Irish it is… Will mail in a bit.
The so called big budget movies have failed coz those movies did not have any head or tail. But as much as u and I hate it, big stars or mediocre stars do guarantee that the distributors would be interested in yr movie.
Also i feel that your stats is a bit flawed in terms of the categorisation of the so called big actor movie and small actor movie.. you are putting awarapan and JBJ in the same category of big star movie?? And Also i think Zinda was not a Hit.. it was just average.
Completely agree that if the movie is good, stars dont really matter provided the right kind of promotion and publicity is done.
wow Vivek, you should take your analysis to some of the bigger production houses in Mumbai. Perhaps you can convince them and pave way for others in the process:d
All I can say Suchita is, while I complete my packing here in Silicon Valley, I am coming to Mumbai on Thurday and am going to shout from every rooftop about my stats…somehow I get the feeling it will not ring any bells, or pave any path:) among folks who listen only what they want to listen, but try I will. Will go to the rooftop in Bianca Bldg in Yaari Road and shout away!!!!In fact it might get me some more “shouting and firings” like happened last time, with a production house!!! but what the hell.
Hey there ! Sorry had logged off last time around. Am in Mumbai. Maybe I can help u shout !
Perfect more voices always carry more weight, depite my loud voice:)
Also I am tempted to go back to the production house that shouted at me and shout back “MARIGOLD,” it might have the desired effect!!! or it might get me killed if they are the sensitive sort!!!
I would put my money on the latter option :P
Vivek, thats great, welkom to bombay, be optimistic ya, everything takes its own course, but if you want something desperatetly, then nature will conspire with you to get it… [read that somewhere] :”>
Thanks Suchita. Will connect with you in Mumbai, still owe you the “khana’ for letting me know where to buy Rajiv Rai cd’s. Actually “Mr Nature” is coming into the SF Bay area tomorrow from LA, so hopefully, kaam ho jaana chahiye. Otherwise the money made by my two hands, two legs and one brain will be used, or the excess made by my broeterin and sisterin in the dot com and bio tech era, will come handy….what is it about you delhi girls that make you such positive thinkers…sometime I think I should know, but I don’t..
Ha ha you still remember that. Don’t bother about it, but wil def connect and exchange notes,
Vivek..I am in the process of setting up a full fledged production house..in early stages..to cut it short..i am doing the same kind of study that you’ve come up with. Budgets mean nothing if the script and budget is all framed up..there are enough and more actors who will back it..promo it..do workshops and the works..Yes, the A list matters sometimes..but that is when we have huge stakes..every movie has its own audience..the trick is simply sensing out that audience…city to city… Vivaah, JWM, Johnny G, Metro, Woh Lamhe, Joggers park, Dor, etc are all case in points…
This is after all a creative business that rides on excellence..I completely agree with you if you say that Barkha shall do more justice to your character than Priyanka!!
Acting is a very trivialised part of film making. That should stop pronto. Best of luck to your “shouting from the rooftops” in Mumbai. Maybe we should get together sometime.
@ Indraneel
Hi ! You from Mumbai ? Would you like to share a bit more about the production house you are working on and what u do ? Thanx.
@PLAYBACK..I live in Pune..but work is equally distributed between Mumbai and Pune..I head a ground entertainment company..but looking at opportunities for a production house..business plans are on..includinga full fledged studio. We all know how tha future is going to be…good time to get in now!!
@ Indraneel
Sure thing ! Wish u all the luck !
Interesting post,Vivek.I suppose a lot of us (wannabe writers,film makers ) hold onto our day jobs ,while pursuing our fantasies. You have have,and so have others in their comments, very honestly written about the hassles encountered when trying to change these fantasies into realities.
Anurag too mentioned about this in his most recent post. Standing up and looking into the mirrror is’nt enough, you find the answers when the mirror changes into plain glass.You can see what lies beyond,then.
Hi Arun,
In my case I honestly can’t complain, maybe because I have trained hard, or lived life enough prior to taking my screenwriting certificate, the breaks have come easy, I mean a year and a half later I had the opportunity to write for Sharmishta, and six months later I had a play written that performed well, plus my first feature got me two meetings with large studios, so to say it is a fantasy or a struggle would be inapt for me. Yes, it is a struggle cause I want to do it my way, but not a struggle to get the script noticed. However, it is more a realization on my part that I never want to be a full time writer, I always want to write scripts while enacting my “part in life,” as a 9 to 5 corporate and “real world” person. That is a choice, not an economic decision, to keep the mind alive and fresh with the ideas and lives of the real people of today, not based on what someone wrote in England in Stratford on Avon, in the 16th century, although he was a genius too, his stories had more masala and more emotions than all of Bollywood put together, and, more power to him for that!!!!
PFC Folks,
Would anyone know where I can BUY a LEGAL dvd of Loins of Punjab, in the Continental North America?
Please let me know ASAP
The ‘Loins of Punjab’ DVD has not been released yet.
Hi Vivek,
i am pursuing my post graduation in Delhi. I just happened to come across your post. I feel you have given excellent insgights on the current trends in Indian Cinema. and the reason why i am so interested in contacting you is because i am doing a thesis on a similar topic > “Whether sex and vulgarity sell in Bollywood”?. i was looking for articles which could give me some quality statistical data but could find none. Your post and the comments came as a big relief !! Can you please help me and if yo have the time give me your thoughts on what do u think makes a movie sell today? is it the storyline, starcast, Sex n vulgarity or music? And if sex is what is selling today, does this mean the degradation of Indian culture? Everyone is invited to comment on this question.Hope to receiving your comments soon. My email id is: bahri.neha@gmail.com